Old Hungarian closed e and naming of Old Hungarian standard

[Asmus Freytag]

This Unicode list is for general discussions of people interested in 
Unicode. It is not a way to reach "Unicode members". There's a firm 
policy of not treating anything discussed here as "official" in any way.

That said, the list is often used to get an informal read on some issue. 
Not excluding getting an idea whether a proposal or suggestion has a 
chance of succeeding (and also, what is the best way to describe the issue).

As to the latter: very few people will know offhand whether 10C8A is 
already encoded, is in the process of being encoded or merely proposed. 
So it's always useful to provide that information in discussion or 
document submissions.

Character or normative script names can't be changed after the fact (and 
changes are also increasingly restricted in the latest stages of the 
process, to make sure things converge). And that's why, ultimately, 
names are not guaranteed to be "correct" from a linguistic perspective.

I find the original mail hard to parse, and have difficulties 
understanding what is being asked (and why). It seems to include adding 
an annotation, which is fine, but one that I find hard to understand. 
Phonetically, "closed" has a certain meaning and usually in character 
names, that's the meaning we would attribute to the term "closed". If, 
in this case, the term "closed" is based on something else, like a 
typographical feature, then an annotation that says that would be 
helpful. If that is not the issue, it would be just more evidence that 
the presentation of the issue is impenetrable.

As for describing the script. At some point, the formal name ends up not 
being perfect for some scripts. However, if the problem is in the 
discussion, or in an annotation in the nameslist, we are not constrained 
by stability concerns and should accommodate a more precise/more 
agreeable description. However, the original e-mail fails to make an 
actual suggestion for language, and fails to identify precisely where 
such language should be used.

An actual submission will have more success if it is clearer in all the 
aspects mentioned and separates proposed changes clearly from the 
background discussions / rationale.

A./


On 7/19/2023 12:38 AM, kovacs.h.viktor via Unicode wrote:
> Peter, I don't think that I understand, what you want to write in this 
> message.
>
>
>> On 2023. júl. 19. at 9:12, Peter Constable <pgcon6 at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> Latin script is not used for only Latin. We shouldn’t get too hung up 
>> on the names.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> *From: *Unicode <unicode-bounces at corp.unicode.org> on behalf of 
>> Kovács Viktor via Unicode <unicode at corp.unicode.org>
>> *Date: *Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 7:31 AM
>> *To: *unicode at corp.unicode.org <unicode at corp.unicode.org>
>> *Subject: *Old Hungarian closed e and naming of Old Hungarian standard
>>
>> Dear members of Unicode comitte,
>>
>> There are a problematic symbol form 10C8A (capital) and 10CCA (small) 
>> letters „closed E”.
>>
>> Critics start from the misconception that the sound of these letters 
>> is closed. Unfortunately, this interpretation has been included in 
>> the standard under the alias of the letter ë.
>> In the Rudimenta example texts (prayers) there are words that contain 
>> the closed form of the letter e, the reading of which is perfectly 
>> clear to native Hungarian readers.
>> I propose to add the alias "Rudimenta e with closed form" to the 
>> upper and lower case "closed e" at 10C8A and 10CCA.
>> The shape of these letters should not be changed.
>>
>> If necessary, I will present a submission with pictures to prove my 
>> point.
>>
>> In any form, the use of the adjective "Szekler-Hungarian rovas 
>> script" is incorrect, as it was not used only in Szeklerland.
>>
>> It is also politically critical, as Szeklerland (or Székelyland) is 
>> the easternmost part of Transylvania, Transylvania being part of 
>> Romania since 1919.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
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