A sketch with the best-known Swiss tongue twister

Philippe Verdy via Unicode unicode at unicode.org
Sat Mar 10 12:26:32 CST 2018

2018-03-10 19:02 GMT+01:00 Arthur Reutenauer <
arthur.reutenauer at normalesup.org>:

>         Philippe,
>   So many approximations and misinterpretations ...
> > Note that  this is what you heard in Lorraine, and there's some
> competition
> > between Lorraine and Alsace. If you lived in Alsace they absolutely don't
> > like to have their language named "German" or "Deutsch" or "platt
> Deutsch",
> > this is "alsacien" for them and nothing else
>   Condescending, are we?  This can of course be a delicate issue,
> especially if expressed insensitively, but most people are also able to
> recognise objective truths.  I never heard anyone deny that Alsatian was
> a dialect of German, except the totally misinformed.  There is even a
> good feeling of connection with the dialects beyond the border, in Baden
> in particular (not so much in Switzerland) -- and an acknowledgement
> that dialects become quite different further inland.
> >                                              even if people in Lorraine
> > (that use other regional oil languages, not based on the Germanic
> substrate
> > but on Romance substrate) refer to Alsatians as "platt deutsch" with even
> > more confusion as it actually mean "low German" and confusing with "nds"
> > spoken much further to the North (North-western Germany and Netherlands)
>   Where do I start?
>   1. That’s not what Philip said
>   2. There is a Germanic dialect in Lorraine, with a large number of
> speakers

The dialect of Lorraine with the  large number of speaker is not the one
you think about, yes it is a Romance/Oïl language and not Germanic at all.

The one you are refering to is only in a very small tiny part of Lorraine
and almost extinct.

  3. Platt just means dialect in German
>   4. Nobody is confusing Lothringer Platt with Low German, except perhaps
> you

You are confusing it with the "parler lorrain" (as I said, "Lothringer
Platt", part of "Francique" is nearly extinct in Lorraine, this is not the
case of the "Parler lorrain", also known in Belgium as "Gaumais" and very
near from "Wallon").

>   5. If you’re going to write “oïl languages” in English you could at
>      least put the diaeresis on the ‘i’, otherwise it really looks silly

Sorry, my message was posted in English, I had not realized that "Oil" with
the capital would look so silly without the diaeresis and in this context,
as if we were sepaking about olives or burnable energy.
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