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<p class="MsoNormal">> The "use something other than a BOM" could mean adding a command line option, adding a menu option, remembering what encoding was used for that file last time, performing a heuristic analysis (that may or may not include the presence
of a BOM in its calculation), prompting the user, etc...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That’s the catch. “Adding… adding… remembering… performing.” If the code was doing the best practices/right thing, it’d be using UTF-8. It isn’t, and it’s sort of a given that it’s legacy behavior. Therefore “adding”, etc. means that
changes have to happen to the applications &/or processes. Which aren’t necessarily going to be deployed promptly, if at all. This isn’t a problem that a standard or best practices can solve.
<br>
<br>
Everyone already knows the best practice: “Use UTF-8”. Any resources/effort is going to be getting toward that best practice, not edge cases of legacy behaviors that are offshoots of something that isn’t the desired end state of “use UTF-8”.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I sympathize with the problem, since I encounter variations of it every day, I just don’t think any tweaking of this text will have any practical impact with moving the needle.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Shawn<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tom Honermann <tom@honermann.net> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 13, 2020 2:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>; Alisdair Meredith <alisdairm@me.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> sg16@lists.isocpp.org; Unicode Mail List <unicode@unicode.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [SG16] Draft proposal: Clarify guidance for use of a BOM as a UTF-8 encoding signature<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/13/20 4:42 PM, Shawn Steele wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">My assertion is that if the application cannot change to UTF-8 due to legacy considerations, that the subtleties of whether to use a BOM or not also cannot be prescribed. If the application could follow best practices, it would use UTF-8.
Since it cannot use UTF-8, therefore it can’t follow any prescribed behavior. Therefore anything beyond “Use Unicode!” is merely suggestions. Terminology like “require” implies a false sense of rigor that these applications can’t follow in practice.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is why the prescription remains abstract:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
If possible, use something other than a BOM.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
As a last resort, use a BOM.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p>I am effectively proposing that as a best practice.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eg: Presume I have a text editor that has been used in some context for some time. If I’m told “use UTF-8”, that’s cool, I could try to do that, but if I cannot, then I’m in an exceptional path. Unicode could suggest that I consider
behavior for BOMs (such as ignoring them if present), however I’m already stuck in my legacy behavior, so there’s a limit to what my application can do.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">This scenario fits the advice above. The "use something other than a BOM" could mean adding a command line option, adding a menu option, remembering what encoding was used for that file last time, performing a heuristic analysis (that
may or may not include the presence of a BOM in its calculation), prompting the user, etc...<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, if Unicode says “if you see a BOM, then you must use UTF-8”, then users of my legacy application that is difficult to change, may have expectations of the application that don’t match reality. They could even enter bugs like “The
app isn’t recognizing data being tagged with BOMs.” Or “your system isn’t compliant, so we can’t license it.” If the app could properly handle UTF-8, we’d have been captured in the first requirements and wouldn’t even be having this part of the conversation.
Since they can’t handle UTF-8, trying to enforce it through the BOM isn’t going to add much.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">No part of this proposal states "if you see a BOM, then you must use UTF-8". It only suggests guidelines; requirements are imposed by protocols as deemed appropriate by the protocol designers.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">IMO it’s better that everyone involved understand that this legacy app that can’t handle UTF-8 by default isn’t necessarily going to behave per any set expectations and likely has legacy behaviors that users may need to deal with.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Granted, the difference between “requiring,” and “suggesting” or “recommending”, may be subtle, however those subtleties can sometimes cause unnecessary pain.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t mind mandating UTF-8 without BOM if possible. I don’t really mind mandating that BOMs be ignored if “without BOM” isn’t reasonable to mandate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">After that though, it’s trying to create a higher order protocol for codepage detection. BOM isn’t a great way to identify UTF-8 data. (It’s probably more effective to decode it as UTF-8. If it decodes properly, then it’s likely UTF-8.
With a certainty of about as many “nines” as you have bytes of input. Linguistically appropriate strings that fail that test are rare.)<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>We are agreed on these points.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Tom.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Shawn<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tom Honermann <a href="mailto:tom@honermann.net">
<tom@honermann.net></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 13, 2020 1:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shawn Steele <a href="mailto:Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com"><Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com></a>; Alisdair Meredith
<a href="mailto:alisdairm@me.com"><alisdairm@me.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sg16@lists.isocpp.org">sg16@lists.isocpp.org</a>; Unicode Mail List
<a href="mailto:unicode@unicode.org"><unicode@unicode.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [SG16] Draft proposal: Clarify guidance for use of a BOM as a UTF-8 encoding signature<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/12/20 4:54 PM, Shawn Steele wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m having trouble with the attempt to be this prescriptive.<br>
<br>
These make sense: “Use Unicode!”<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
If possible, mandate use of UTF-8 without a BOM; diagnose the presence of a BOM in consumed text as an error, and produce text without a BOM.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
Alternatively, swallow the BOM if present.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">After that the situation is clearly hopeless. Applications should Use Unicode, eg: UTF-8, and clearly there are cases happening where that isn’t happening. Trying to prescribe
that negotiation should therefore happen, or that BOMs should be interpreted or whatever is fairly meaningless at that point. Given that the higher-order guidance of “Use Unicode” has already been ignored, at this point it’s garbage-in, garbage-out. Clearly
the app/whatever is ignoring the “use unicode” guidance for some legacy reason. If they could adapt, it should be to use UTF-8. It *<b>might</b>* be helpful to say something about a BOM likely indicating UTF-8 text in otherwise unspecified data, but prescriptive
stuff is pointless, it’s legacy stuff that behaves in a legacy fashion for a reason and saying they should have done it differently 20 years ago isn’t going to help
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>There are applications that, for legacy reasons, are unable to change their default encoding to UTF-8, but that also need to handle UTF-8 text. It is not clear to me that such situations are hopeless or that they cannot be improved.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The prescription offered follows what you suggest. The first three cases are are all of the "use Unicode!" variety. The distinction between the third and the fourth is to relegate use of a BOM as an encoding signature to the last resort option. The intent
is to make it clear, with stronger motivation than is currently present in the Unicode standard, that use of a BOM in UTF-8 is not a best practice today.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Tom.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-Shawn<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Unicode <a href="mailto:unicode-bounces@unicode.org">
<unicode-bounces@unicode.org></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Honermann via Unicode<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 12, 2020 7:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alisdair Meredith <a href="mailto:alisdairm@me.com"><alisdairm@me.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:sg16@lists.isocpp.org">sg16@lists.isocpp.org</a>; Unicode List
<a href="mailto:unicode@unicode.org"><unicode@unicode.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [SG16] Draft proposal: Clarify guidance for use of a BOM as a UTF-8 encoding signature<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Great, here is the change I'm making to address this:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Protocol designers:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
If possible, mandate use of UTF-8 without a BOM; diagnose the presence of a BOM in consumed text as an error, and produce text without a BOM.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
Otherwise, if possible, mandate use of UTF-8 with or without a BOM; accept and discard a BOM in consumed text, and produce text without a BOM.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
Otherwise, if possible, use UTF-8 as the default encoding with use of other encodings negotiated using information other than a BOM; accept and discard a BOM in consumed text, and produce text without a BOM.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
Otherwise, require the presence of a BOM to differentiate UTF-8 encoded text in both consumed and produced text<b><span style="color:#009900"> unless the absence of a BOM would result in the text being interpreted as an ASCII-based encoding and the UTF-8 text
contains no non-ASCII characters (the exception is intended to avoid the addition of a BOM to ASCII text thus rendering such text as non-ASCII)</span></b>. This approach should be reserved for scenarios in which UTF-8 cannot be adopted as a default due to
backward compatibility concerns.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Tom.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/12/20 8:40 AM, Alisdair Meredith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That addresses my main concern. Essentially, best practice (for UTF-8) would be no BOM unless the document contains code points that require multiple code units to express.
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<p class="MsoNormal">AlisdairM<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 11, 2020, at 23:22, Tom Honermann <<a href="mailto:tom@honermann.net">tom@honermann.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/10/20 7:58 PM, Alisdair Meredith via SG16 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">One concern I have, that might lead into rationale for the current discouragement,
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<p class="MsoNormal">is that I would hate to see a best practice that pushes a BOM into ASCII files.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">One of the nice properties of UTF-8 is that a valid ASCII file (still very common) is<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">also a valid UTF-8 file. Changing best practice would encourage updating those<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">files to be no longer ASCII.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks, Alisdair. I think that concern is implicitly addressed by the suggested resolutions, but perhaps that can be made more clear. One possibility would be to modify the "protocol
designer" guidelines to address the case where a protocol's default encoding is ASCII based and to specify that a BOM is only required for UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters. Would that be helpful?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Tom.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">AlisdairM<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 10, 2020, at 14:54, Tom Honermann via SG16 <<a href="mailto:sg16@lists.isocpp.org">sg16@lists.isocpp.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Attached is a draft proposal for the Unicode standard that intends to clarify the current recommendation regarding use of a BOM in UTF-8 text. This is follow up to
<a href="https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2020-June/008713.html">discussion on the Unicode mailing list</a> back in June.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Feedback is welcome. I plan to
<a href="https://www.unicode.org/pending/docsubmit.html">submit</a> this to the UTC in a week or so pending review feedback.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Tom.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><Unicode-BOM-guidance.pdf>-- <br>
SG16 mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:SG16@lists.isocpp.org">SG16@lists.isocpp.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg16">https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg16</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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