<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">11 okt. 2020 kl. 08:12 skrev Asmus Freytag via Unicode <<a href="mailto:unicode@unicode.org" class="">unicode@unicode.org</a>>:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The simple solution would be to try to
contact the people behind some of these websites and simply asking
how they do it. That might provide useful answers to whether any
encoding solution will be taken up by implementers.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>As for the production of Teletext pages, my guess is that there will be no change in tooling or encoding for as long as Teletext pages are going to be produced (except for updates to use newly allocated Unicode characters). The production is, admittedly, waning, and may stop in a few years. At least for ”news” pages; subtitling may go on much longer.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>What may be of more interest is archiving. Digital archives saving ”old” data have faced, and are still facing, at least two issues. One is the physical media themselves. Tape (formats), diskette (formats), and tape readers, diskette readers, and now also more ”modern” storage media are getting outdated; and keeping ”old” data needs storage media transfer. Another is encoding; for text there has been a need to convert from various ”old” encodings to ”modern” ones; now often converting to a Unicode encoding.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I don’t know if anyone is actively trying to archive (in a future retrievable manner) Teletext pages. But if there are, they face a text encoding issue. Not just for the ordinary text, but also for the styling of the text. The storage formats (likely vendor specific) will likely go outdated; the ”broadcast formats/protocols” (that we are discussing) are already quaint and incompatible with modern computers. Saving the pages as HTML (including the linkage between pages) may be sufficient for quite some time.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It is possible to convert Teletext pages to use an ECMA-48-based format (using some extensions); that would make the pages directly displayable on terminal emulators (assuming that the terminal emulator implements the extensions…). Teletext pages do, after all, have a ”look” that is close to the ”look” of terminal emulators… Or be displayable in text editors that are ECMA-48 enabled… This would be closer in concept to Teletext for the styling controls than HTML is. I have a suggestion for extensions to ECMA-48 styling that covers Teletext styling capabilities. But those are just suggestions from me; a proof of concept, and not wide-spread implementations.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>/Kent K</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">A./<br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/10/2020 3:02 PM, Kent Karlsson
via Unicode wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A04CA5BD-A928-4EC1-9327-E21E2E9B4CFA@bahnhof.se" class="">
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<br class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;" class="">Here are a few more web sites showing Teletext
pages from various European TV channels.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">THE LIST IS SURELY FAR FROM COMPLETE, it is just a
sample. But it does show that Teletext</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">is commonly displayed as web pages, not just via TV
channels (whether "analog" or DVB).</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">I haven't seen these combined with web versions of TV
channels, but that would surely</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">be possible to combine. That would be especially
useful for optional subtilting, where</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Teletext is still much used, as a useful
accessibility feature.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">I have no prediction of how long any channels will
continue to produce Teletext content.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">But optional subtilting seems to "survive" longer.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">I do not know what source format(s) may be used, but
it is surely not HTML</span> <span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">*nor* close</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;" class="">to the Teletext protocol. But see the Teletext
page edit tool referenced below.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Spain, RTVE:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://www.rtve.es/television/teletexto/100/" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.rtve.es/television/teletexto/100/</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Sweden, SVT:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://texttv.nu/" class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://texttv.nu/</a> <span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">(also as iOS app, same name)</span><br class="">
<a href="https://www.svt.se/svttext/web/pages/100.html" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.svt.se/svttext/web/pages/100.html</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Iceland, RÚV:</span><br class="">
<a href="http://textavarp.is/sida/100" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">http://textavarp.is/sida/100</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Denmark, DR:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://www.dr.dk/cgi-bin/fttx1.exe/100" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.dr.dk/cgi-bin/fttx1.exe/100</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Norway, NRK:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://www.nrk.no/tekst-tv/100/" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.nrk.no/tekst-tv/100/</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Finland, YLE:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://yle.fi/aihe/tekstitv" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://yle.fi/aihe/tekstitv</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Switzerland, SRF:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://www.teletext.ch/" class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.teletext.ch/</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Croatia, HRT:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://teletekst.hrt.hr/" class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://teletekst.hrt.hr/</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Greece:</span><br class="">
<a href="https://www.greektvidents.com/Teletext_ERTEXT.shtml" class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.greektvidents.com/Teletext_ERTEXT.shtml</a><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">And more; I have not done a complete survey!</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">There are also several apps for iOS and for Android
that display Teletext content from</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;" class="">various (TV channel) providers.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">What the source format is for the Teletext pages as
produced today, I don't know. But I would</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;" class="">guess</span> <span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">that it is
likely "plain text" files, with Teletext specific markup, that
is then converted to</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">1) Teletext analog format, 2) Teletext DVB format, 3)
HTML. But that is just my guess.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Again note that Teletext is still commonly used for
optional subtitles. (DVB subtitles, a "bitmapped"</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">format (i.e. the subtitles are sent as images, not
text) does not seem to be used much. At least, I</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">haven't seen it.) This requires timing, which is not
part of the Teletext protocol, but must be in</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">the source in order to control when a subtitle is
output as Teletext for optional display.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">So</span> <br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> "But a teletext application for a modern computer
is not "normal use." It is reasonable</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> for a non-standard application like this to
interpret characters from U+0000 to U+001F</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> as the corresponding ISO 646 characters would be
in teletext."</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">is very false.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Further, the "object" overrides in the Teletext
*protocol*, in several levels, "objects"</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">prioritized depending on "implementation level", can
specify:</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">1) Bold, italic, underline, proportional font.</span><br class="">
<font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">2) More colours (but only
16 levels per red/green/blue, no </span><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">transparency</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> though).</span></font><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">3) Character substitutions (likely replacing spaces)
to be able to display characters from "G3".</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">These cannot be handled by "retaining" the
ill-designed control codes of Teletext anyway.</span><br class="">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Have an </span><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">urge</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> to edit your own Teletext
pages? Here</span><span style="font-size:
14.666666984558105px;" class="">’</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">s the web page for doing
just that:</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=""><a href="https://zxnet.co.uk/teletext/editor" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://zxnet.co.uk/teletext/editor</a></span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">You can
save your page in a handful of formats (plus as image). I
haven’t analyzed these formats,</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">but
presumably they are storage formats actually used for ”real”
Teletext pages that are converted</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">to be
transmitted (”analog” (outdated) or DVB) or given as web
pages (HTML, but no ”separated</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">mosaic”
characters, since they are not yet allocated in Unicode;
could use small images though...).</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class="">/Kent K</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
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