From autumn at tfwno.gf Fri Jul 12 14:31:56 2024 From: autumn at tfwno.gf (autumn at tfwno.gf) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 15:31:56 -0400 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters Message-ID: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Hello. I looked at the unicode cyrillic characters and I could not find the characters I want so I wanted to ask if they could be added. I don't know anything about fonts so I don't think I could do it myself. I will describe the characters I want. When ? and ? are handwritten with block letters they have pointy tops. ? can be used for ? but to my knowledge there is nothing for ? so I would really like if ? with a pounty top could be added. There are also more. ? can also be written like a backwards s. A lowercase ? looks like g and ? looks like u with a line over it. I am not sure if these could be added but I would like it if I could use these letters in my documeht without needing to change the font to a font where they look like this. Thanks From jameskass at code2001.com Fri Jul 12 15:05:38 2024 From: jameskass at code2001.com (James Kass) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:05:38 +0000 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Message-ID: On 2024-07-12 7:31 PM, autumn--- via Unicode wrote: > Hello. I looked at the unicode cyrillic characters and I could not > find the characters I want so I wanted to ask if they could be added. > I don't know anything about fonts so I don't think I could do it > myself. I will describe the characters I want. > > When ? and ? are handwritten with block letters they have pointy tops. > ? can be used for ? but to my knowledge there is nothing for ? so I > would really like if ? with a pounty top could be added. There are > also more. ? can also be written like a backwards s. A lowercase ? > looks like g and ? looks like u with a line over it. I am not sure if > these could be added but I would like it if I could use these letters > in my documeht without needing to change the font to a font where they > look like this. Thanks Quoting from: https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode15.0.0/ch01.pdf ... from "Characters and Glyphs" on page 7 of 9 "The difference between identifying a character and rendering it on screen or paper is crucial to understanding the Unicode Standard?s role in text processing. The character identified by a Unicode code point is an abstract entity, such as ?LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A? or ?BENGALI DIGIT FIVE?. The mark made on screen or paper, called a glyph, is a visual representation of the character. "The Unicode Standard does not define glyph images. That is, the standard defines how characters are interpreted, not how glyphs are rendered. Ultimately, the software or hardware rendering engine of a computer is responsible for the appearance of the characters on the screen. The Unicode Standard does not specify the precise shape, size, or orientation of on-screen characters." Variant glyphs of existing "atomic characters" aren't suitable for encoding.? So displaying a cursive form of ? (U+0414 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DE) can only be accomplished with a font switch. From abrahamgross at disroot.org Fri Jul 12 15:30:16 2024 From: abrahamgross at disroot.org (ag disroot) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:30:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Message-ID: <53899a50-535a-44bc-a58f-c30a246fc38d@disroot.org> Unless you can find usage where its used as distinct glyphs rather than just variants, you're not likely to make a successful proposal From jameskass at code2001.com Fri Jul 12 15:31:56 2024 From: jameskass at code2001.com (James Kass) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:31:56 +0000 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Message-ID: On 2024-07-12 8:05 PM, James Kass via Unicode wrote: > Variant glyphs of existing "atomic characters" aren't suitable for > encoding. Sorry, my bad, they aren't *typically* suitable for encoding.? There have been some exceptions, but cursive versus printed forms aren't among them unless it has been determined that there is some kind of semantic difference between the forms. From doug at ewellic.org Fri Jul 12 15:59:44 2024 From: doug at ewellic.org (Doug Ewell) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 20:59:44 +0000 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Message-ID: James Kass wrote: > So displaying a cursive form of ? (U+0414 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DE) > can only be accomplished with a font switch. For reference, the following fonts on my Windows system? display pointy-topped ? and ?: Century Gothic, Dehuti, Franklin Gothic (all weights), Gabriola, Garamond, Palatino Linotype, Segoe Print Additionally, Ink Free and Mistral display a pointy ? but a conventional ?, while the cursive fonts Monotype Corsiva and Segoe Script display a pointy ?, plus a ? that looks like a Latin D. None of these fonts has corresponding ?normal? versions of the pointy letters, and for good reason: this is a font design issue, as James said. This link may also be helpful: https://www.unicode.org/standard/where/#Variant_Shapes ? To the extent it matters, at least one of the listed fonts is from a third party. -- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org From christoph.paeper at crissov.de Fri Jul 12 17:18:39 2024 From: christoph.paeper at crissov.de (=?utf-8?Q?Christoph_P=C3=A4per?=) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 00:18:39 +0200 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: favicon.ico Type: image/vnd.microsoft.icon Size: 5430 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1200px-Bulgarian_Cyrillic-_Traditional_and_Modern.svg.png Type: image/png Size: 106787 bytes Desc: not available URL: From haberg-1 at telia.com Sat Jul 13 03:15:48 2024 From: haberg-1 at telia.com (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_=C3=85berg?=) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 10:15:48 +0200 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> Message-ID: <96A26BBC-C1FD-4245-B7CB-EFC8D47E9027@telia.com> > On 13 Jul 2024, at 00:18, Christoph P?per via Unicode wrote: > > autumn---: >> >> When ? and ? are handwritten with block letters they have pointy tops. ? can be used for ? but to my knowledge there is nothing for ? so I would really like if ? with a pounty top could be added. > > Please do not substitute Cyrillic by Greek letters! The text above uses ? LATIN CAPITAL LETTER TURNED V, U+0245. Which Greek letter are you referring to? From lyratelle at gmx.de Sat Jul 13 03:47:23 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 10:47:23 +0200 Subject: Handwritten cyrillic block letters In-Reply-To: <96A26BBC-C1FD-4245-B7CB-EFC8D47E9027@telia.com> References: <1f01a813b57b00272f3579863da1aa05@tfwno.gf> <96A26BBC-C1FD-4245-B7CB-EFC8D47E9027@telia.com> Message-ID: <358d002f-5617-455c-a6e5-fd3b0dfe868d@gmx.de> Am 13.07.24 um 10:15 schrieb Hans ?berg via Unicode: > >> On 13 Jul 2024, at 00:18, Christoph P?per via Unicode wrote: >> >> autumn---: >>> >>> When ? and ? are handwritten with block letters they have pointy tops. ? can be used for ? but to my knowledge there is nothing for ? so I would really like if ? with a pounty top could be added. >> >> Please do not substitute Cyrillic by Greek letters! > > The text above uses ? LATIN CAPITAL LETTER TURNED V, U+0245. Which Greek letter are you referring to? Replacing Cyrillic letters by Latin ones is a similar bad idea. From as at signographie.de Fri Jul 19 04:00:02 2024 From: as at signographie.de (=?UTF-8?Q?A=2E_St=C3=B6tzner?=) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 11:00:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pictographic zodiacal symbols Message-ID: <1609502406.1138839.1721379602249@email.ionos.de> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ko?hler 1710_x.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37566 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wl at gnu.org Mon Jul 22 23:48:30 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 04:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? Message-ID: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> Folks, we wonder about the origin of the following two characters: ? U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP ? U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT The original proposal to encode them in Unicode is https://unicode.org/L2/L1998/98045.pdf ? alas, the contained scans don't cover those two characters, and I don't have access to the cited books. We can't remember having them ever seen in the wild. Of course, there is a difference between using musical symbols in a score and in the text block of a book, but still... BTW, the Standard Music Font Layout (SMuFL, https://w3c.github.io/smufl/latest/index.html) lists them in the section 'other accidentals' as U+E47E and U+E47F, in case this matters. And to broaden the question I wonder whether there exists a database that gives references, sources, andd explanatory comments to each and every Unicode character, and which can be accessed publicly. Werner From wl at gnu.org Tue Jul 23 00:53:22 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 05:53:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> > we wonder about the origin of the following two characters: > > ? U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP > ? U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT > > The original proposal to encode them in Unicode is > https://unicode.org/L2/L1998/98045.pdf ? alas, the contained scans > don't cover those two characters, and I don't have access to the cited > books. Well, thanks to the internet I was able to actually check the cited references (Read, Heussenstamm, Rastall, Stone), and *none* of them actually contain these accidentals! Sigh. Does anybody have an e-mail address of the proposal's author, Perry Roland? Maybe he can remember... Werner From wl at gnu.org Tue Jul 23 01:26:57 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 06:26:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> >> we wonder about the origin of the following two characters: >> >> ? U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP >> ? U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT >> >> The original proposal to encode them in Unicode is >> https://unicode.org/L2/L1998/98045.pdf ? alas, the contained scans >> don't cover those two characters, and I don't have access to the cited >> books. > > Well, thanks to the internet I was able to actually check the cited > references (Read, Heussenstamm, Rastall, Stone), and *none* of them > actually contain these accidentals! > > Sigh. Does anybody have an e-mail address of the proposal's author, > Perry Roland? Maybe he can remember... Found it ? I've CCed him. Perry, please comment! Werner From marius.spix at web.de Tue Jul 23 05:41:30 2024 From: marius.spix at web.de (Marius Spix) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:41:30 +0200 Subject: Aw: Re: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wl at gnu.org Tue Jul 23 07:11:49 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:11:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Aw: Re: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <20240723.141149.1600656357913476256.wl@gnu.org> > I already dicussed that in the thread "Reference glyphs of musical > accidentals quarter sharp and quarter flat". In my opinion, the > reference glyphs for these characters are incorrect. Thanks! For reference, this thread starts at https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2024-January/010679.html Werner From haberg-1 at telia.com Tue Jul 23 07:44:13 2024 From: haberg-1 at telia.com (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_=C3=85berg?=) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 14:44:13 +0200 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: > On 23 Jul 2024, at 12:41, Marius Spix via Unicode wrote: > > I already dicussed that in the thread "Reference glyphs of musical accidentals quarter sharp and quarter flat". In my opinion, the reference glyphs for these characters are incorrect. They are similar to the septimal quarter tone notation [1] used by Ben Johnston [2], which attaches a "7", possibly upside down, to the standard accidentals. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimal_quarter_tone 2. https://en.xen.wiki/w/Ben_Johnston%27s_notation From kxeonn at yandex.com Mon Jul 22 20:29:12 2024 From: kxeonn at yandex.com (kxeo) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:29:12 -0500 Subject: Two questions here. Is the Pridnestrovian Ruble not used enough to be added to Unicode, and did I mess up by sending my proposal thrice? Message-ID: <0787698d-e1bf-c41b-ac1b-f0408c3a79aa@yandex.com> First off, is the Pridnestrovian Ruble not used enough to be added to Unicode? I mean, Pridnestrovie (Transnistria) is a relatively small and unknown country compared to the other currency symbols in Unicode. The state's not even recognised... Also, I had to send the proposal for the Pridnestrovian Ruble 3 times. First email had a broken PDF and also had many broken caveats, and the second email managed to forget the date. They haven't responded in two weeks. Patience may be key but something tells me that they aren't getting back. Did the triple email make them no longer respond? Maybe it was the double email, or maybe they're just drowning in emails? From markus.icu at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 10:36:46 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 08:36:46 -0700 Subject: Two questions here. Is the Pridnestrovian Ruble not used enough to be added to Unicode, and did I mess up by sending my proposal thrice? In-Reply-To: <0787698d-e1bf-c41b-ac1b-f0408c3a79aa@yandex.com> References: <0787698d-e1bf-c41b-ac1b-f0408c3a79aa@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 8:18?AM kxeo via Unicode wrote: > They haven't responded in two weeks. Patience may be key but something > tells me that they aren't getting back. Did the triple email make them > no longer respond? Maybe it was the double email, or maybe they're just > drowning in emails? > Unicode does not work that fast, and shouldn't, because once a character is encoded, it is permanent, and adds to what everyone has to implement. If you look in the document register https://www.unicode.org/L2/L-curdoc.htm -- you will see document L2/24-134 ?Proposal to Encode a Pridnestrovian Ruble Sign? There is also document L2/24-166 ?Recommendations to UTC #180 July 2024 on Script Proposals? which briefly discusses this proposal, points to an earlier proposal, and makes some suggestions. The Script Encoding Working Group will present L2/24-166 in the quarterly UTC meeting this week. Best regards, markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameskass at code2001.com Tue Jul 23 10:41:07 2024 From: jameskass at code2001.com (James Kass) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 15:41:07 +0000 Subject: Two questions here. Is the Pridnestrovian Ruble not used enough to be added to Unicode, and did I mess up by sending my proposal thrice? In-Reply-To: <0787698d-e1bf-c41b-ac1b-f0408c3a79aa@yandex.com> References: <0787698d-e1bf-c41b-ac1b-f0408c3a79aa@yandex.com> Message-ID: <0045cb01-143c-4211-a38e-ca76c090c061@code2001.com> On 2024-07-23 1:29 AM, kxeo via Unicode wrote: > First off, is the Pridnestrovian Ruble not used enough to be added to > Unicode? I mean, Pridnestrovie (Transnistria) is a relatively small > and unknown country compared to the other currency symbols in Unicode. > The state's not even recognised... Proposal from Ivan Adrianov here: https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2024/24134-pridnestrovian-ruble.pdf Ahh, Markus has just replied to the OP. From egg.robin.leroy at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 05:25:44 2024 From: egg.robin.leroy at gmail.com (Robin Leroy) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:25:44 +0200 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: (Resending this message from an address that is subscribed to the list so it properly gets sent to it; apologies to Werner & Jean who will already have seen it.) Le mar. 23 juil. 2024 ? 06:53, Werner LEMBERG via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> a ?crit : > we wonder about the origin of [? and ?] > For context I think this post is what sparked the present thread: https://bsky.app/profile/gro-tsen.bsky.social/post/3kxvoiguyqf2o As noted in the replies there, I have managed to find them used in a score (from 1998, like the proposal): https://www.kitbraz.info/solo-performer-scores/sonar-como-una-tromba-larga-to-sound-like-a-great-waterspout-a6r45 In further discussion on Bluesky, Jean wondered whether this was really ?, or a normal half-sharp* with a digit 4 sticking out. It turns out that one can get a higher-resolution image of the score by playing with URL parameters, and it is really ?, with two vertical lines: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d4d94ab78e49900019e6d23/1626899038486-BVADHF5950LJU6VKRWW0/Sonar-11x17+page+6.jpg?format=2500w ? * With one vertical line, provisionally assigned at U+1D1EB by UTC decision 178-C37 . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From list+unicode at jdlh.com Wed Jul 24 15:33:04 2024 From: list+unicode at jdlh.com (Jim DeLaHunt) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:33:04 -0700 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> On 2024-07-22 23:26, Werner LEMBERG via Unicode wrote: >>> we wonder about the origin of the following two characters: >>> >>> ? U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP >>> ? U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT >>> >>> The original proposal to encode them in Unicode is >>> https://unicode.org/L2/L1998/98045.pdf ? alas, the contained scans >>> don't cover those two characters, and I don't have access to the cited >>> books. >> Well, thanks to the internet I was able to actually check the cited >> references (Read, Heussenstamm, Rastall, Stone), and *none* of them >> actually contain these accidentals! >> >> Sigh. Does anybody have an e-mail address of the proposal's author, >> Perry Roland? Maybe he can remember... > Found it ? I've CCed him. Perry, please comment! In answer to the original question, "does anybody know about these accidentals?", I am delighted that I actually know something helpful to answer this question. I follow two leading communities working on music notation. Each of them probably has people who know about these accidentals. Each of them has a public discussion forum, in which this question could be relayed. There may also be other music notation communities with which I am not familiar. 1. the W3C Music Notation Community Group . It was formed primarily to take over maintenance of the MusicXML notation spec, but it also maintains the SMuFL (Standard Music Font Layout) specification. Werner linked to SMuFL at . SMuFL "provides a standard way of mapping the thousands of musical symbols required by conventional music notation into the Private Use Area in Unicode?s Basic Multilingual Plane for a single (format-independent) font."? Thus the W3C Music Notation Community Group's public-music-notation list would be a good place to relay this question. The Group's main page has a link to that mailing list. 2. the Music Encoding Initiative . It was formed primarily to maintain the MEI notation spec. It has a largely academic focus and membership. Perry Roland (cc'd) is one of the founders and leading experts of the MEI community, but I understand that he is leaving the leadership to others these days. Thus the people in this community are good prospects to know about how these symbols are actually used in music scores. The MEI group has an email list and Slack channel, both described at . The Slack channel is the more conversational venue. It would also be a good place to relay this question. What specifically would you like to know about these accidentals?? What do you "wonder about the origin of" [these two characters]? If you would write a message with your questions, I will post that in these two foums. Best regards, ???? ?Jim DeLaHunt -- . --Jim DeLaHunt,jdlh at jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant, Vancouver, B.C., Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wl at gnu.org Wed Jul 24 23:31:37 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 04:31:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> References: <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> Message-ID: <20240725.063137.1858409383050234809.wl@gnu.org> > In answer to the original question, "does anybody know about these > accidentals?", I am delighted that I actually know something helpful > to answer this question. [...] Thanks. Meanwhile, we got an answer ? an example of a real-world score containing the two characters in question was given. The conclusion is that those accidentals, while not seen today normally, were really used for music notation before being added to Unicode. Whether they were actually used within plain text (which is, more or less, the aim of Unicode) is another issue but no longer of relevance today. Werner From haberg-1 at telia.com Thu Jul 25 08:58:39 2024 From: haberg-1 at telia.com (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_=C3=85berg?=) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:58:39 +0200 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> Message-ID: > On 24 Jul 2024, at 22:33, Jim DeLaHunt via Unicode wrote: > > What specifically would you like to know about these accidentals? What do you "wonder about the origin of" [these two characters]? If you would write a message with your questions, I will post that in these two foums. Even though one example was given here upthread, a score where it is used, it is hard to find any other examples of it by searches. At the same time, Unicode does not have much of microtonal accidentals, so it is curious it ending up in it. So the question is what is its origin? From list+unicode at jdlh.com Thu Jul 25 20:15:38 2024 From: list+unicode at jdlh.com (Jim DeLaHunt) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 18:15:38 -0700 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> Message-ID: Hans: On 2024-07-25 06:58, Hans ?berg wrote: >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 22:33, Jim DeLaHunt via Unicode wrote: >> >> What specifically would you like to know about these accidentals? What do you "wonder about the origin of" [these two characters]? If you would write a message with your questions, I will post that in these two foums. > Even though one example was given here upthread, a score where it is used, it is hard to find any other examples of it by searches. At the same time, Unicode does not have much of microtonal accidentals, so it is curious it ending up in it. So the question is what is its origin? So it sounds like this is a "history of music notation" question, rather than a character encoding question. And it looks like this is just passing on the question from?@gro-tsen.bsky.social, rather than asking a different question. Is this the question to be passed on to the W3C Music Notation Community Group and the MEI group? Who wants to hear the reply?? If it is @gro-tsen.bsky.social, and if the person who knows the answer is not on BlueSky, to whom do they reply? If I know how to reply, I can pass on a question like this: > I am passing on a second-hand question from @gro-tsen.bsky.social [8] > about the origin and history of two quarter-tone accidentals. They > were used in at least one score in the 1990s[6][7], and were > incorporated into SMuFL and Unicode. Can anybody shed light on the > origin and history of these accidentals? > > The accidentals are: > > 1. A "quarter tone sharp" accidental. It looks like a sharp accidental > with a digit 4 coming out of the left vertical stroke[9][2][3]. It is > encoded in Unicode as ? U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP[1], > and in SMuFL as U+E47E[9]. > > 2. A "quarter tone flat" accidental. It looks like a flat accidental > with a digit 4 coming out of the vertical stroke[9][4] (and sometimes > the upright stroke within the 4 is omitted[5]). > > [1] Unicode code chart including U+1D132 and U+1D133 > > [2] DecodeUnicode about Quarter Tone Sharp with image > > [3] CodePoints.net about Quarter Tone Sharp with image > > [4] DecodeUnicode about Quarter Tone Flat with image > > [5] CodePoints.net about Quarter Tone Flat with image > > [6] Sales page for musical score, "Sonar Como Una Tromba Larga (to > sound like a great waterspout)", composed by "Kitty Brazelton, May > 1998" > > [7] Enlarged excerpt showing the Quarter Tone Sharp accidental, > measures 97-104 of IV. "Es La Vida, Una Tromba Larga" from "Sonar Como > Una Tromba Larga" > > [8] Question from @gro-tsen.bsky.social, 2024-07-22 > > [9] SMuFL specification, 4.38 "Other accidentals", including U+E47E > and U+E47F > > > If you know, this list might be interested in a reply, and the asker > at [@@@ fill in contact information @@@] would also appreciate a reply > directly, because as far as I know they are not subscribed here. > Do I have the question right? ?????? ?Jim DeLaHunt -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh at jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant, Vancouver, B.C., Canada From haberg-1 at telia.com Fri Jul 26 02:09:20 2024 From: haberg-1 at telia.com (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_=C3=85berg?=) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 09:09:20 +0200 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <20240723.064830.2195655384184554324.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.075322.1725604601736191522.wl@gnu.org> <20240723.082657.1455619143327118987.wl@gnu.org> <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> Message-ID: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 03:15, Jim DeLaHunt via Unicode wrote: > > On 2024-07-25 06:58, Hans ?berg wrote: >>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 22:33, Jim DeLaHunt via Unicode wrote: >>> >>> What specifically would you like to know about these accidentals? What do you "wonder about the origin of" [these two characters]? If you would write a message with your questions, I will post that in these two foums. >> Even though one example was given here upthread, a score where it is used, it is hard to find any other examples of it by searches. At the same time, Unicode does not have much of microtonal accidentals, so it is curious it ending up in it. So the question is what is its origin? > > So it sounds like this is a "history of music notation" question, rather than a character encoding question. Since the character is already encoded as a code point, and Unicode never removes any one already there, the character encoding question of this character is already settled. But it has been discussed here whether to add the rest of the Smufl characters. There it was noted that there is overlap, the same glyph may have more than one encoding. For example, the Turkish AEU accidentals are semantically different from the Western, but historically the same. For example, the AEU ? and ? are microtonal accidentals due to mistakes when constructing the system, but nevertheless, this is what is being used. This issue must somehow be resolved before these characters can be added to Unicode. My original question is a part of this larger perspective. From wl at gnu.org Fri Jul 26 02:17:29 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:17:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <3182dd5c-9084-4b6d-a32b-225914b12d86@jdlh.com> Message-ID: <20240726.091729.896529671318207382.wl@gnu.org> >>> What specifically would you like to know about these accidentals? >>> What do you "wonder about the origin of" [these two characters]? >>> If you would write a message with your questions, I will post that >>> in these two foums. >> >> Even though one example was given here upthread, a score where it >> is used, it is hard to find any other examples of it by searches. >> At the same time, Unicode does not have much of microtonal >> accidentals, so it is curious it ending up in it. So the question >> is what is its origin? > > So it sounds like this is a "history of music notation" question, > rather than a character encoding question. And it looks like this > is just passing on the question from?@gro-tsen.bsky.social, rather > than asking a different question. Is this the question to be passed > on to the W3C Music Notation Community Group and the MEI group? Good question. I think the issue is primarily related to Unicode ? in a proposal, there should (or should I say 'must'?) be a reference to or a scan of a document that clearly shows why a character is going to be included into the standard. For the two accidentals in question it turned out that the original proposal from 1998 doesn't fulfill this requirement. It may have been 'obvious' then to include the particular shapes, however, it is no longer the case. Given that there is a new proposal to add more microtonal accidentals to Unicode, the main question is whether there should be a single character code for 'an accidental that raises a sharp by a quarter tone' (and analogous cases) or not. As SMuFL demonstrates, there is more than a single glyph shape for this, which makes it a non-trivial decision. It is quite unfortunate that the shown shapes of the currently available Unicode microtone accidendals are probably the least used today. >> I am passing on a second-hand question from @gro-tsen.bsky.social >> [8] about the origin and history of two quarter-tone accidentals. >> They were used in at least one score in the 1990s[6][7], and were >> incorporated into SMuFL and Unicode. Can anybody shed light on the >> origin and history of these accidentals? [...] Sounds good, thanks. Note, however, that the author of the original proposal replied already, saying that he had notes then, but they are lost now. I think that further questions will probably help dig out more examples printed before 1998, which is certainly beneficial. Werner From wl at gnu.org Fri Jul 26 02:43:27 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:43:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> > Since the character is already encoded as a code point, and Unicode > never removes any one already there, the character encoding question > of this character is already settled. Yes, but the shown glyph shape is disputable ? or not, depending on the point of view. After some thinking I now believe that they shouldn't be changed. However, the description should be improved. The two characters 1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP 1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT are actually not accidentals but *pitch modifiers*: they are *added* left to an accidental (or a note), indicating that the given pitch has to be raised or lowered by a quarter tone. This usage is shown in the provided scans. I've just sent an error report via https://corp.unicode.org/reporting/error.html suggesting to move these two characters out of the `@ accidentals` section into a new one, `@ Pitch modifiers` (to use the notation from `NamesList.txt`). Werner From list+unicode at jdlh.com Fri Jul 26 02:54:19 2024 From: list+unicode at jdlh.com (Jim DeLaHunt) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 00:54:19 -0700 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: On 2024-07-25 18:15, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: > ?So it sounds like this is a "history of music notation" question, > rather than a character encoding question.? > ?Who wants to hear the reply?? If it is @gro-tsen.bsky.social, and if > the person who knows the answer is not on BlueSky, to whom do they > reply? ? > [What is] the question to be passed on to the W3C Music Notation > Community Group and the MEI group?? On 2024-07-26 00:09, Hans ?berg via Unicode wrote: > ?it has been discussed here whether to add the rest of the Smufl characters.? On 2024-07-26 00:17, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > ?Given that there is a new proposal to add more microtonal accidentals > to Unicode, the main question is whether there should be a single > character code for 'an accidental that raises a sharp by a quarter > tone' (and analogous cases) or not.? On 2024-07-26 00:43, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > ?the shown glyph shape is disputable ? or not, depending on > the point of view. After some thinking I now believe that they > shouldn't be changed. However, the description should be improved.? I am now confused. This thread opened by asking who knew about two music notation symbols. I pointed out two internet communities which might have people who know about music notation. Because I am subscribed to both, I offered to pass on the question as I understood it.? I now no longer understand what question to pass on. I will leave it to the proponents of these proposal(s) to contact those communities if they think it will be helpful. Best regards, ??? ?Jim DeLaHunt -- . --Jim DeLaHunt,jdlh at jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant, Vancouver, B.C., Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From haberg-1 at telia.com Fri Jul 26 02:54:38 2024 From: haberg-1 at telia.com (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_=C3=85berg?=) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 09:54:38 +0200 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> References: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <78F55E5C-9439-40BF-ADAC-E44FED01F4E0@telia.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 09:43, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > >> Since the character is already encoded as a code point, and Unicode >> never removes any one already there, the character encoding question >> of this character is already settled. > > Yes, but the shown glyph shape is disputable ? or not, depending on > the point of view. After some thinking I now believe that they > shouldn't be changed. However, the description should be improved. > > The two characters > > 1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP > 1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT > > are actually not accidentals but *pitch modifiers*: they are *added* > left to an accidental (or a note), indicating that the given pitch has > to be raised or lowered by a quarter tone. This usage is shown in the > provided scans. Good point! To give some background for the readership: An accidental is an interval of relative scale degree zero, that is, which amounts to the same thing, it is used to modify one interval to another one without changing its position in the staff system musical score. A pitch modifier, as I take it, pushes the tuning of the whole musical segment, but does not change any interval sizes within that segment. > I've just sent an error report via > > https://corp.unicode.org/reporting/error.html > > suggesting to move these two characters out of the `@ accidentals` > section into a new one, `@ Pitch modifiers` (to use the notation from > `NamesList.txt`). From wl at gnu.org Fri Jul 26 03:08:57 2024 From: wl at gnu.org (Werner LEMBERG) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 08:08:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <20240726.100857.945158935592631308.wl@gnu.org> >> ?the shown glyph shape is disputable ? or not, depending on the >> point of view. After some thinking I now believe that they >> shouldn't be changed. However, the description should be >> improved.? > > I am now confused. This thread opened by asking who knew about two > music notation symbols. Yes. As mentioned before, this question has been asked ? and answered. Additioanlly, the topic has been extended by Hans and me, including the bigger picture of adding new accidentals to Unicode. > I pointed out two internet communities which might have people who > know about music notation. Because I am subscribed to both, I > offered to pass on the question as I understood it. I now no longer > understand what question to pass on. It would be still good to have more information on the two characters and how they have been used around 1998. Ideally, it would be great to have more scans of other scores. Werner From haberg-1 at telia.com Fri Jul 26 03:12:47 2024 From: haberg-1 at telia.com (=?utf-8?Q?Hans_=C3=85berg?=) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:12:47 +0200 Subject: does anybody know about these accidentals? In-Reply-To: References: <20240726.094327.1213803845094789610.wl@gnu.org> Message-ID: <3DF87F6B-9D8C-4AE2-BCDB-510AE2E2AEDD@telia.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 09:54, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: > > On 2024-07-25 18:15, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >> ?So it sounds like this is a "history of music notation" question, rather than a character encoding question.? >> ?Who wants to hear the reply? If it is @gro-tsen.bsky.social, and if the person who knows the answer is not on BlueSky, to whom do they reply? ? >> [What is] the question to be passed on to the W3C Music Notation Community Group and the MEI group?? > > On 2024-07-26 00:09, Hans ?berg via Unicode wrote: >> ?it has been discussed here whether to add the rest of the Smufl characters.? > On 2024-07-26 00:17, Werner LEMBERG wrote: >> ?Given that there is a new proposal to add more microtonal accidentals >> to Unicode, the main question is whether there should be a single >> character code for 'an accidental that raises a sharp by a quarter >> tone' (and analogous cases) or not.? > > > On 2024-07-26 00:43, Werner LEMBERG wrote: >> ?the shown glyph shape is disputable ? or not, depending on >> the point of view. After some thinking I now believe that they >> shouldn't be changed. However, the description should be improved.? > I am now confused. This thread opened by asking who knew about two music notation symbols. I pointed out two internet communities which might have people who know about music notation. Because I am subscribed to both, I offered to pass on the question as I understood it. I now no longer understand what question to pass on. It would be helpful if you ask about adding the Smufl characters to Unicode, and how they think the issue with duplicates should be resolved. The questions about the original characters in this thread lead to the principles used when making additions to Unicode, but since they have already been added, and not used so much, not so important in themselves. > I will leave it to the proponents of these proposal(s) to contact those communities if they think it will be helpful. > Best regards, > ?Jim DeLaHunt > -- > . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh at jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) > multilingual websites consultant, Vancouver, B.C., Canada From jshin1987 at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 15:37:51 2024 From: jshin1987 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?SnVuZ3NoaWsgU0hJTiAo7Iug7KCV7IudKQ==?=) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:37:51 -0700 Subject: UDHR in Unicode In-Reply-To: <59502d9a-d506-4dbe-bc27-05023e819a51@ix.netcom.com> References: <8c9926c0-265a-4114-b930-de22ed21902b@code2001.com> <59502d9a-d506-4dbe-bc27-05023e819a51@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Sorry for resurrecting a 6 month old thread. I was looking for UDHR translations. https://unicode.org/udhr/ points to https://www.ohchr.org/en/human-rights/universal-declaration/universal-declaration-human-rights/about-universal-declaration-human-rights-translation-project but does not include a pointer to https://github.com/eric-muller/udhr . And, it appears that ohchr.org site does not have plain text versions available (only PDF is available as far as I can tell). At least, the Hindi translation in PDF is not even a text but images. Should we start with adding a pointer to Eric's github to https://unicode.org/udhr ? Jungshik On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:27?PM Asmus Freytag via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > If somebody can find a good place for that info, we can put an FAQ item > with the new location. > > Let me have a reasonably specific proposal and I can roll it in. > > A./ > > On 1/10/2024 8:47 AM, Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: > > The udhr repo is now here:https://github.com/eric-muller/udhr > > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Unicode On Behalf Of Peter Constable via Unicode > Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2024 11:46 AM > To: James Kass ; unicode at corp.unicode.org > Subject: RE: UDHR in Unicode > > Happy 2024! > > Some in this thread were jumping to unwarranted conclusions. (Nothing will be deleted.) The UDHR project will be taken over by Eric Muller, who was the one that started it. The Web content and git repo will be moved to a domain he owns. > > > Peter Constable > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameskass at code2001.com Mon Jul 29 16:31:23 2024 From: jameskass at code2001.com (James Kass) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:31:23 +0000 Subject: UDHR in Unicode In-Reply-To: References: <8c9926c0-265a-4114-b930-de22ed21902b@code2001.com> <59502d9a-d506-4dbe-bc27-05023e819a51@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <2b61a611-7d89-46be-a5b4-b7f2c173e649@code2001.com> SEACrowd used to fetch UDHR data from unicode.org but no longer can.? Here's a bug filed on June 17: https://github.com/SEACrowd/seacrowd-datahub/issues/685 Eric Muller's github is a repository of the data, but in order to easily open the XML pages so that they work in a web browser, please try this link: http://efele.net/udhr/ ... where clicking on "Translations" at the upper left side of the screen brings up a more familiar presentation of the data, including plain text where available. On 2024-07-29 8:37 PM, Jungshik SHIN (???) via Unicode wrote: > Sorry for resurrecting a 6 month old thread. I was looking for UDHR > translations. > > https://unicode.org/udhr/ points to > https://www.ohchr.org/en/human-rights/universal-declaration/universal-declaration-human-rights/about-universal-declaration-human-rights-translation-project > but does not include a pointer to https://github.com/eric-muller/udhr > ?.? And, it appears that > ohchr.org site does not? have plain text versions > available (only PDF is available as far as I can tell).? At least, the > Hindi translation in PDF is not even a text but images. > > Should we start with adding a pointer to Eric's github to > https://unicode.org/udhr ? > > Jungshik > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:27?PM Asmus Freytag via Unicode > wrote: > > If somebody can find a good place for that info, we can put an FAQ > item with the new location. > > Let me have a reasonably specific proposal and I can roll it in. > > A./ > > On 1/10/2024 8:47 AM, Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: >> The udhr repo is now here: >> https://github.com/eric-muller/udhr >> >> >> Peter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Unicode On Behalf Of Peter Constable via Unicode >> Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2024 11:46 AM >> To: James Kass ;unicode at corp.unicode.org >> Subject: RE: UDHR in Unicode >> >> Happy 2024! >> >> Some in this thread were jumping to unwarranted conclusions. (Nothing will be deleted.) The UDHR project will be taken over by Eric Muller, who was the one that started it. The Web content and git repo will be moved to a domain he owns. >> >> >> Peter Constable >> >> > From jshin1987 at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 21:19:52 2024 From: jshin1987 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?SnVuZ3NoaWsgU0hJTiAo7Iug7KCV7IudKQ==?=) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:19:52 -0700 Subject: UDHR in Unicode In-Reply-To: <2b61a611-7d89-46be-a5b4-b7f2c173e649@code2001.com> References: <8c9926c0-265a-4114-b930-de22ed21902b@code2001.com> <59502d9a-d506-4dbe-bc27-05023e819a51@ix.netcom.com> <2b61a611-7d89-46be-a5b4-b7f2c173e649@code2001.com> Message-ID: Thanks a lot, James ! That's very helpful. Jungshik On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 2:36?PM James Kass via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > > SEACrowd used to fetch UDHR data from unicode.org but no longer can. > Here's a bug filed on June 17: > > https://github.com/SEACrowd/seacrowd-datahub/issues/685 > > Eric Muller's github is a repository of the data, but in order to easily > open the XML pages so that they work in a web browser, please try this > link: > http://efele.net/udhr/ > ... where clicking on "Translations" at the upper left side of the > screen brings up a more familiar presentation of the data, including > plain text where available. > > On 2024-07-29 8:37 PM, Jungshik SHIN (???) via Unicode wrote: > > Sorry for resurrecting a 6 month old thread. I was looking for UDHR > > translations. > > > > https://unicode.org/udhr/ points to > > > https://www.ohchr.org/en/human-rights/universal-declaration/universal-declaration-human-rights/about-universal-declaration-human-rights-translation-project > > but does not include a pointer to https://github.com/eric-muller/udhr > > . And, it appears that > > ohchr.org site does not have plain text versions > > available (only PDF is available as far as I can tell). At least, the > > Hindi translation in PDF is not even a text but images. > > > > Should we start with adding a pointer to Eric's github to > > https://unicode.org/udhr ? > > > > Jungshik > > > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:27?PM Asmus Freytag via Unicode > > wrote: > > > > If somebody can find a good place for that info, we can put an FAQ > > item with the new location. > > > > Let me have a reasonably specific proposal and I can roll it in. > > > > A./ > > > > On 1/10/2024 8:47 AM, Peter Constable via Unicode wrote: > >> The udhr repo is now here: > >> https://github.com/eric-muller/udhr > >> > >> > >> Peter > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Unicode unicode-bounces at corp.unicode.org> On Behalf Of Peter Constable via > Unicode > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2024 11:46 AM > >> To: James Kass jameskass at code2001.com>;unicode at corp.unicode.org > >> Subject: RE: UDHR in Unicode > >> > >> Happy 2024! > >> > >> Some in this thread were jumping to unwarranted conclusions. > (Nothing will be deleted.) The UDHR project will be taken over by Eric > Muller, who was the one that started it. The Web content and git repo will > be moved to a domain he owns. > >> > >> > >> Peter Constable > >> > >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: