From daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de Sun Dec 1 02:53:11 2024 From: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de (Daniel Buncic) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 09:53:11 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Am 01.12.2024 um 04:15 schrieb Markus Scherer via Unicode: > As a library implementer and German speaker, I have been looking out > for the supposed sea change in usage, and haven't seen it. Dear Markus, There are three things that make the change less visible. First, domain names and other ASCII environments as well as stylistic devices. I live in a town called Br?hl and work in a city called K?ln (which has its own top-level domain, .koeln). You see a surprising number of signage, logos, etc. which spell the names as ?Bruehl? or ?Koeln?: https://www.cvjm.koeln/ueber-uns/175-jahre.html https://mhi-koeln.de/ http://kleinbahn.koeln/ https://koeln-weekend.de/ https://www.ebay.de/str/koelnartkunsthandel This is also true of Gie?en, where the incorrect spelling ?Giessen? has a long tradition of giving the name a more artistic, more modern, or more international flavor: https://img.oldthing.net/8867/27104185/0/p/AK-Ansichtskarte-Giessen-Lahn-Behoerdenhochhaus-Hauptbahnhof-Stadttheater-Schloss-Wappen-Kat.webp https://www.sportkreis-giessen.de/ https://www.dayuse.de/hotels/germany/trip-inn-city-hotel-giessen https://www.statt-giessen.com/ https://giessenkreativ.de/ http://transit-giessen.de/ If the spelling ?Giessen? is ubiquitous, one should not be surprised to also find ?GIESSEN?. Second, ignorance about the spelling in general. I think I have seen ?Stra?e? and ?Spa?? spelled as ?Strasse? and ?Spass? more often than the correct spelling: https://bigtime.ch/6476-tm_thickbox_default/viel-spass-damit-stempel.jpg https://access-im-unternehmen.de/Flexible_Adressen/ https://www.kartenparadies.at/cdn/shop/products/GanzvielSpasszumGeburtstagKW-460_900x.jpg https://app.fuxcdn.de/api/fb437fc8-fbec-4c45-a28c-7bebd9aa4d5e/thumbnail/74/25/f8/1668190533/mainspatzen-arbeit-macht-spass-v_800x800.jpg In contrast to this, ?STRASSE? and ?SPASS? are not even incorrect. Third, ignorance about technical possibilities. So many designs are nowadays made by people who know how to handle QuarkXPress or InDesign but who have no idea about typography or even orthography. Designers often choose fonts for corporate designs that only contain the absolute minimum of characters. My own university chose a font that does not let me write my name, Bun?i?, let alone write a Russian translation in the same font. Such minimal fonts also do not contain capital ?. But there definitely is change. Compare old book covers of ?The Great Gatsby? in German like https://nikol-verlag.de/cdn/shop/products/9783868205268_351x523.jpg https://images.thalia.media/00/-/0f18217aef9f4c779a86bc28985ce4d7/der-grosse-gatsby-gebundene-ausgabe-f-scott-fitzgerald.jpeg (which have the title as ?DER GROSSE GATSBY?) with two covers from 2022 and 2023 https://images.thalia.media/00/-/20013f18fd854595b609ea31f7dba854/der-grosse-gatsby-gebundene-ausgabe-f-scott-fitzgerald.jpeg https://einfachebuecher.de/thumbnail/1f/08/26/1680510657/Der%20gro%C3%9Fe%20Gatsby%20-%20cover%20Lowres_1920x1920.jpg (where the title is spelled ?DER GRO?E GATSBY?). A few years ago, the number of capital ? you could see was exactly zero. Now they are popping up more and more. For the above reasons, they are not the majority yet, but they are increasing fast. Language change is happening in front of our eyes. All the best, Daniel -- Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? =============================================================== Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K =============================================================== Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 =============================================================== From otto.stolz at uni-konstanz.de Sun Dec 1 07:51:25 2024 From: otto.stolz at uni-konstanz.de (Otto Stolz) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 14:51:25 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <499cca63-5d54-495d-960c-fada639001e5@uni-konstanz.de> Hello, am 2024-12-01 um 1:44?Uhr hat Steffen Nurpmeso geschrieben: > Yes, and Stra?e/STRASSE is such a thing if there is Gasse/GASSE > but which just has the same "S-sound", and always had since the > earth existsed (1972). Was it Ga?e, ever? No, never. In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, e.?g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, you write ???;?as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. Cf. and . Best wishes, ??Otto Stolz From otto.stolz at uni-konstanz.de Sun Dec 1 07:52:47 2024 From: otto.stolz at uni-konstanz.de (Otto Stolz) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 14:52:47 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <17f15fb2-80b8-44ad-8675-bf0588da1bc6@uni-konstanz.de> Hello, am 2024-12-01 um 1:44?Uhr hat Steffen Nurpmeso geschrieben: > Yes, and Stra?e/STRASSE is such a thing if there is Gasse/GASSE > but which just has the same "S-sound", and always had since the > earth existsed (1972). Was it Ga?e, ever? No, never. In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, e.?g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, you write ???;?as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. Cf. and . Best wishes, ??Otto Stolz From waltertross at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 08:36:15 2024 From: waltertross at gmail.com (Walter Tross) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 15:36:15 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <499cca63-5d54-495d-960c-fada639001e5@uni-konstanz.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <499cca63-5d54-495d-960c-fada639001e5@uni-konstanz.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 2:54?PM Otto Stolz via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as > being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, > e. g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, > you write ???; as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. > Cf. > and . > And to clarify the need for the ?: it ensures the pronunciation as /s/ as opposed to /z/ (Stra?e is pronounced /?t?a?s?/, while *Strase would be pronounced /?t?a?z?/) Walter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markus.icu at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 10:14:56 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 08:14:56 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: Hi Daniel, On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:56?AM Daniel Buncic via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > But there definitely is change. Compare old book covers of ?The Great > Gatsby? in German like > https://nikol-verlag.de/cdn/shop/products/9783868205268_351x523.jpg > > > https://images.thalia.media/00/-/0f18217aef9f4c779a86bc28985ce4d7/der-grosse-gatsby-gebundene-ausgabe-f-scott-fitzgerald.jpeg > (which have the title as ?DER GROSSE GATSBY?) > with two covers from 2022 and 2023 > > > https://images.thalia.media/00/-/20013f18fd854595b609ea31f7dba854/der-grosse-gatsby-gebundene-ausgabe-f-scott-fitzgerald.jpeg This one looks very much like a lowercase ?. https://einfachebuecher.de/thumbnail/1f/08/26/1680510657/Der%20gro%C3%9Fe%20Gatsby%20-%20cover%20Lowres_1920x1920.jpg > (where the title is spelled ?DER GRO?E GATSBY?). > This one, yes. A few years ago, the number of capital ? you could see was exactly zero. > Now they are popping up more and more. For the above reasons, they > are not the majority yet, but they are increasing fast. Language change > is happening in front of our eyes. > Before we switch the default behavior of uppercasing libraries, it would be useful to get more examples of the transition. Maybe queries for certain things that show the proportion of SS, ?, ?. Or prominent publications that use all caps with ?. Danke / sch?nen Gru?, markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markus.icu at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 12:32:41 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 10:32:41 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: I searched amazon.de for ?der gro?e?. Not one capital ? on the first two pages. Among results on those pages for recent items: ?ARTHUR DER GROSSE?, ?AIR - DER GROSSE WURF?, ?DER GRO?E WADAS?, ?DER GROSSE GOPNIK?, ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER GUTEN GEDANKEN?, ?DER GROSSE SOMMER?, ?DER GROSSE YOUTUBER-BEEF?, ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER SELBST REFLEXION?, ?DER GROSSE SCHLEIMFILM?, ?ALEXANDER DER GROSSE?, 2x ?DER GROSSE GATSBY? Surely there are no significant limitations for book and movie titles of the last 2-3 years that would keep their publishers from using the capital ? if they wanted to. markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexander.lange at catrinity-font.de Sun Dec 1 14:29:13 2024 From: alexander.lange at catrinity-font.de (Alexander Lange) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 21:29:13 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <17f15fb2-80b8-44ad-8675-bf0588da1bc6@uni-konstanz.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <17f15fb2-80b8-44ad-8675-bf0588da1bc6@uni-konstanz.de> Message-ID: <4b97eeb1-4e81-4e3e-9650-f645b1680d74@catrinity-font.de> Hello, > In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as > being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, > e.?g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, > you write ???;?as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. > Cf. > and . This is the new rule since the 1996 reform though. Originally,???? would replace??ss? in all words where the two??s? belong to the same syllable, including words with short vowels like ?Flu?? (now ?Fluss?) or ?na?? (now ?nass?) as well as those with long vowels like ?Fu?? (not changed) or ?Stra?e? (where the syllable boundary is before the ???, ?Stra-?e?). ?Gasse? however is hyphenated ?Gas-se?, so the two ?s? never ligated to a ??? by either rule. Curiously though, when I was in school in the 80s and 90s, we were always taught the new rule even before the reform was in public discussion, let alone in effect. The many short-vowel words with an ??? were called ?exceptions?, despite having been perfectly regular if you cited the rule that was actually in use at the time. I have never understood how the old rule could fall into oblivion while it was still used. Kind regards, Alexander From daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de Sun Dec 1 14:51:21 2024 From: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de (Daniel Buncic) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 21:51:21 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <5dea826a-0264-421e-9cd4-5b7225d05600@uni-koeln.de> Am 01.12.2024 um 19:32 schrieb Markus Scherer: > I searched amazon.de for ?der gro?e?. Not one capital ? on the first two > pages. Among results on those pages for recent items: ?ARTHUR DER GROSSE?, > ?AIR - DER GROSSE WURF?, ?DER GRO?E WADAS?, ?DER GROSSE GOPNIK?, ?DAS > GROSSE BUCH DER GUTEN GEDANKEN?, ?DER GROSSE SOMMER?, ?DER GROSSE > YOUTUBER-BEEF?, ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER SELBST REFLEXION?, ?DER GROSSE > SCHLEIMFILM?, ?ALEXANDER DER GROSSE?, 2x ?DER GROSSE GATSBY? Amazon sells all the books, movies, etc. that are in stock. They can be very old. Even when a book is given as ?published in 2022? or so, this often only means that there was a new printing of the same edition, or a new but stereotypical edition. This is not representative of whatever change has been going on in the last couple of years. Remember, the new wording that expresses a preference for ? over SS (or at least treats them equally) was only published this year, with the new Duden edition (which is what people actually read rather than the official rules) coming out in August, just 3? months ago. Of course this has not changed all the 2.5 million German-language books that are currently available. But, as I have shown, the more recent a cover, the more often you see a capital ?. All the best, Daniel -- Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? =============================================================== Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K =============================================================== Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 =============================================================== From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 14:52:55 2024 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 14:52:55 -0600 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:35?PM Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote: > I searched amazon.de for ?der gro?e?. Not one capital ? on the first two pages. Among results on those pages for recent items: ?ARTHUR DER GROSSE?, ?AIR - DER GROSSE WURF?, ?DER GRO?E WADAS?, ?DER GROSSE GOPNIK?, ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER GUTEN GEDANKEN?, ?DER GROSSE SOMMER?, ?DER GROSSE YOUTUBER-BEEF?, ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER SELBST REFLEXION?, ?DER GROSSE SCHLEIMFILM?, ?ALEXANDER DER GROSSE?, 2x ?DER GROSSE GATSBY? > > Surely there are no significant limitations for book and movie titles of the last 2-3 years that would keep their publishers from using the capital ? if they wanted to. > > markus You searched a digital database that will be displayed on user screens, some of which may not have been updated for years and might not have new fonts, and who knows when all the bibliographic systems have been updated. Using cutting edge Unicode characters is not always the best way. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't systems that still used ISO-8859-1 or MARC-8 (a library-specific tailoring of ISO-2022) in the bibliographic loop. On the first page of searches for me, I see 14 items; looking at titles on cover pictures, two of which are lowercase and one of which, "Der gro?e Wadas", uses a ? on the cover. Searching Books for Der gro?e Gatsby shows 12 or 13 distinct covers, 6 with DER (or Der) GROSSE GATSBY on the cover, three with DER (or Der) GRO?E GATSBY, and 4 with lowercase titles. A few dated back to 2006, so it's not a trivial sample of modern covers. Amazon's pretty bad for this in some ways, but judging from those searches and a couple others, there's some use on book covers, maybe 10-15% of uppercase titles. -- The standard is written in English . If you have trouble understanding a particular section, read it again and again and again . . . Sit up straight. Eat your vegetables. Do not mumble. -- _Pascal_, ISO 7185 (1991) From daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de Sun Dec 1 15:01:21 2024 From: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de (Daniel Buncic) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:01:21 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <4b97eeb1-4e81-4e3e-9650-f645b1680d74@catrinity-font.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <17f15fb2-80b8-44ad-8675-bf0588da1bc6@uni-konstanz.de> <4b97eeb1-4e81-4e3e-9650-f645b1680d74@catrinity-font.de> Message-ID: Am 01.12.2024 um 21:29 schrieb Alexander Lange via Unicode: >> In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as >> being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, >> e.?g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, >> you write ???;?as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. > > This is the new rule since the 1996 reform though. No, this has always been the rule. However, the rule used to have one exception, namely that at the end of a word and before a consonant you could only have ?, even if the vowel was short. It is only this exception (which was based on long ? in blackletter and therefore quite obsolete) that was abolished in the 1998 spelling reform. Best wishes, Daniel -- Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? =============================================================== Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K =============================================================== Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 =============================================================== From alexander.lange at catrinity-font.de Sun Dec 1 15:30:35 2024 From: alexander.lange at catrinity-font.de (Alexander Lange) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:30:35 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <17f15fb2-80b8-44ad-8675-bf0588da1bc6@uni-konstanz.de> <4b97eeb1-4e81-4e3e-9650-f645b1680d74@catrinity-font.de> Message-ID: <39ec0160-67e0-4601-8e45-302c3eff1c79@catrinity-font.de> On 01.12.2024 22:01, Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote: > Am 01.12.2024 um 21:29 schrieb Alexander Lange via Unicode: >>> In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as >>> being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, >>> e.?g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, >>> you write ???;?as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. >> >> This is the new rule since the 1996 reform though. > > No, this has always been the rule.? However, the rule used to have one > exception, namely that at the end of a word and before a consonant you > could only have ?, even if the vowel was short.? It is only this > exception (which was based on long ? in blackletter and therefore > quite obsolete) that was abolished in the 1998 spelling reform. The rule set till 1996 was called Adelungsche s-Schreibung: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelungsche_s-Schreibung And the one now in effect is called Heysesche s-Schreibung: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysesche_s-Schreibung What you call an exception is the difference between the two. And both are from the time when long ? was still used, so this doesn't make one more obsolete than the other. But I would not want to argue about this. Whether the second criterion in Adelung's rule is part of the rule or an exception doesn't really matter, it would just be nitpicking. The thing I found weird is that our schoolbooks and teachers listed a lot of words as irregular exceptions that we would have to memorize, when in fact they all could have been explained with just one or two more sentences (like we both just did). Kind regards, Alexander From markus.icu at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 15:42:20 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 13:42:20 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:53?PM David Starner wrote: > On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:35?PM Markus Scherer via Unicode > wrote: > > I searched amazon.de for ?der gro?e?. Not one capital ? on the first > two pages. Among results on those pages for recent items: ?ARTHUR DER > GROSSE?, ?AIR - DER GROSSE WURF?, ?DER GRO?E WADAS?, ?DER GROSSE GOPNIK?, > ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER GUTEN GEDANKEN?, ?DER GROSSE SOMMER?, ?DER GROSSE > YOUTUBER-BEEF?, ?DAS GROSSE BUCH DER SELBST REFLEXION?, ?DER GROSSE > SCHLEIMFILM?, ?ALEXANDER DER GROSSE?, 2x ?DER GROSSE GATSBY? > > You searched a digital database that will be displayed on user > screens, some of which may not have been updated for years and might > not have new fonts, and who knows when all the bibliographic systems > have been updated. I was looking at the *images* of the book and video titles. The images have no such limitations. (The *text* of the titles rarely uses all caps.) And I only looked at publications since ca. 2020. Although Daniel has a point in that publishers may not change their title pages in a new edition of an older publication. On the first page of searches for me, I see 14 items; looking at > titles on cover pictures, two of which are lowercase and one of which, > "Der gro?e Wadas", uses a ? on the cover. No, that one is clearly a lowercase ?. Searching Books for Der > gro?e Gatsby shows 12 or 13 distinct covers, 6 with DER (or Der) > GROSSE GATSBY on the cover, three with DER (or Der) GRO?E GATSBY, and > 4 with lowercase titles. I am only counting recent editions, and only all-caps titles. For "der gro?e gatsby", I get a sea of SS. There is a lowercase ? , and another lowercase . And a third one . Finally, down on the second page, a capital ? . As far as I can tell, the capital ? is nowhere near pushing aside SS, and even the lowercase ? is more common in all caps German book and video titles. markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 16:24:39 2024 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 16:24:39 -0600 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 3:42?PM Markus Scherer wrote: > No, that one is clearly a lowercase ?. I disagree; that's clearly an eszett, between other uppercase characters, and unless there's some linguistic weirdness going on, like iPhone or eBook, that's a capital letter. Glyphs have to be taken in context, and in that case, it's clear they didn't intend for one character in the middle of the word to be lowercase. I could wonder whether that's a bad glyph for the text, or one used by preference to the ? style glyph, but in Latin-script German, in a modern Unicode context, it makes no sense to maintain a distinction between an uppercased lowercase ? and an uppercase ?. Uppercase("?") should go to "SS" or "?", and a glyph looking like ? in an uppercase context should be interpreted and written as U+1E9E, not U+00DF. -- The standard is written in English . If you have trouble understanding a particular section, read it again and again and again . . . Sit up straight. Eat your vegetables. Do not mumble. -- _Pascal_, ISO 7185 (1991) From lyratelle at gmx.de Sun Dec 1 19:48:18 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 02:48:18 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> Message-ID: Am 30.11.24 um 18:16 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > On 11/27/2024 12:15 PM, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > However, speaking of this as a "default" is confusing to readers who > think in terms of text processing or authoring environments where a > different set of requirements rule. Here, the proper "default" is the > best implementation of a culturally appropriate case transform. NO. I really mean "default" in a technical sense, not something someone tailors to local needs. The ? was introduced to have an invertible casing, just like compatibility codepoints were assigned to make preservation of old formating information available if a translation back to some obsolete charset is necessary. _This new letter was invented to allow for 1:1 roundtrip conversion._ toUpper() shall change "?" to "?" instead of "SS", just to allow toLower() producing back "?" instead of a wrong spelling with "ss" (which at the moment can only be avoided using a german dictionary - a really heavy constraint to a small function like toLower - and for family names simply not possible at all - the information is lost). This is a really bad situation, which should be fixed as soon as possible, not a matter of taste. And it should be fixed explicitly in automatic text processing - because this is were today errors are produced, that can now be avoided. In private letters it doesn't matter what form is used - the people write whatever they want anyway. But automatic processing shall not drop information that can not be brought back (expcept with re-introducing this knowledge back manually). > And what is "best"? can change over time. No. Fixing this round-trip bug is in the best interest of unicode and that won't change over time. Using "SS" in all uppercase text was always a bad workaround that became a source of spelling errors by automatic text processing and for which a fix was invented some ten years ago. So lets use it everywhere - at least now that it is officially allowed (since 2017) and even preferred (since this year). From lyratelle at gmx.de Sun Dec 1 19:51:31 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 02:51:31 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: Am 01.12.24 um 09:53 schrieb Daniel Buncic via Unicode: > Am 01.12.2024 um 04:15 schrieb Markus Scherer via Unicode: >> As a library implementer and German speaker, I have been looking out >> for the supposed sea change in usage, and haven't seen it. It's just 4 months that the new Duden is available. Even in the digital era it will take some more time. > minimum of characters.? My own university chose a font that does not let > me write my name, Bun?i?, let alone write a Russian translation in the > same font.? Such minimal fonts also do not contain capital ?. > > But there definitely is change. [...] > (where the title is spelled ?DER GRO?E GATSBY?). > > A few years ago, the number of capital ? you could see was exactly zero. > ?Now they are popping up more and more.? For the above reasons, they > are not the majority yet, but they are increasing fast.? Language change > is happening in front of our eyes. Yep. That so many sources still keeps the old SS is mainly so, because checking which "SS" should be changed to "?" and which not (because the lowercase would also use "ss") is an error-prone manual task, that noone is willing to pay for - especially for so little gain. So I would expect the new form only occuring in new publications. But in automatic text processing the old form is simply a bug that needs to be fixed. The new form has to be the "default" - otherwise implementations will proliferate this bug forever. From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 23:09:12 2024 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 23:09:12 -0600 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 7:54?PM Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > But in automatic text processing the old form is simply a bug that needs > to be fixed. The new form has to be the "default" - otherwise > implementations will proliferate this bug forever. Various systems take for granted that case folding is stable. Differences in how Unicode data is interpreted has open security holes in systems, and while this isn't particularly likely with this change, it is possible, which is part of the reason case-folding is guaranteed to be stable. Such a change can confuse case-insensitive filesystems, or change the interpretation of code in case-insensitive filesystems. The automated default isn't going to change, and German is going to have to join Turkish in that purely default case-conversion just doesn't work for them. -- The standard is written in English . If you have trouble understanding a particular section, read it again and again and again . . . Sit up straight. Eat your vegetables. Do not mumble. -- _Pascal_, ISO 7185 (1991) From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 1 23:25:35 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 21:25:35 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <9f8e28dd-bb1a-4d47-98fc-93236c0fd2b7@ix.netcom.com> On 12/1/2024 2:24 PM, David Starner via Unicode wrote: > On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 3:42?PM Markus Scherer wrote: >> No, that one is clearly a lowercase ?. > I disagree; that's clearly an eszett, between other uppercase > characters, and unless there's some linguistic weirdness going on, > like iPhone or eBook, that's a capital letter. No, it's not. > Glyphs have to be taken > in context, and in that case, it's clear they didn't intend for one > character in the middle of the word to be lowercase. That (writing a lowercase ? in ALLCAPS) being / having been an acceptable fallback, you can't assume anything based on context. You do need to consider the glyph (unless you have access to the underlying text buffer). > I could wonder > whether that's a bad glyph for the text, or one used by preference to > the ? style glyph, but in Latin-script German, in a modern Unicode > context, it makes no sense to maintain a distinction between an > uppercased lowercase ? and an uppercase ?. Uppercase("?") should go to > "SS" or "?", and a glyph looking like ? in an uppercase context should > be interpreted and written as U+1E9E, not U+00DF. The glyph is clearly not that for a capital letter - for one, it extends above the tops of all other capitals. Typical designs for capital forms of ? tend to be wider and a bit more squat in appearance. The distinction is quite noticeable. What you are arguing is that one should not use that fallback any longer. I have no arguments with that, but in this case, the fallback was used. A./ From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 1 23:36:31 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 21:36:31 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <5dea826a-0264-421e-9cd4-5b7225d05600@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <5dea826a-0264-421e-9cd4-5b7225d05600@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <215f26eb-0a1c-483a-bb87-12414388310a@ix.netcom.com> On 12/1/2024 12:51 PM, Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote: > Am 01.12.2024 um 19:32 schrieb Markus Scherer: >> I searched amazon.de for ?der gro?e?. Not one capital ? on the first two >> pages. ... > > Amazon sells all the books, movies, etc. that are in stock.? They can > be very old.? Even when a book is given as ?published in 2022? or so, > this often only means that there was a new printing of the same > edition, or a new but stereotypical edition.? This is not > representative of whatever change has been going on in the last couple > of years. ... Book titles are interesting, but subject to things like house styles. On the other hand, ad designs are among the most contemporaneous uses of text, and I had no problems spotting one with a very prominent capital sharp s (image should have been shared on the list, if not stripped). Use is definitely more prominent than it was at the time (Unicode 5.1) that we encoded U+1E9E. Just like adoption of the 1996 orthography has not been universal, we can expect there to be a transition period. However, overly conservative/cautious implementation of software support (e.g. using the wrong tables to do uppercasing in a text design app, as opposed to for identifiers) will unnecessarily prolong that transition. A./ From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 1 23:50:14 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 21:50:14 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On 11/30/2024 4:44 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Doug Ewell via Unicode wrote in > ook.com>: > |Thanks to Asmus for saying what I had planned to say, except that his \ > |was better-worded, more carefully put together, and more authoritative. > | > |Casing for text meant for human readers should follow current local \ > |conventions. > | > |Casing for text meant for machine processing (file systems, databases, \ > |etc.) must remain stable, even when local conventions change. > > Sorry that makes totally no sense to me. Because you probably have never considered what havoc would be caused by changing in mid-stream anything about the processing of identifiers and similar strings that are not text, but unambiguous references to domains, files or other resources. (You can make some changes when you create a new domain and set rules for it for the first time, but that's about it). > I would, however, not bring in uppercase sharp S for quite some > time. But at some time, or when really the SS would be banned "in > all Germans" which are used as official languages, sooner that is, > then the current Unicode data would be just wrong. Good luck banning SS in "all Germans". You probably did not consider the fact that German written in Switzerland only uses ss and SS and therefore banning SS would be more than confusing. It would needless compromise a well accepted local orthography. German written in Germany has undergone a transition, and as partially as a result of / but mostly in parallel to that transition, we see a secondary shift in capitalization away from a typewriter / telegraph inspired fallback to a more natural way of writing where all letters have a case pair and casing is reversible. ?The same cannot be said for Swiss German. There's not been a similar transition, which would have needed to start with lower case usage. As long as the Swiss don't use ?, I can't see them banning "SS". A./ From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 00:08:12 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:08:12 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1366af56-f8e3-4ef4-b3fa-b5c2c9e0d469@ix.netcom.com> On 12/1/2024 5:48 PM, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > Am 30.11.24 um 18:16 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: >> On 11/27/2024 12:15 PM, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: >> However, speaking of this as a "default" is confusing to readers who >> think in terms of text processing or authoring environments where a >> different set of requirements rule. Here, the proper "default" is the >> best implementation of a culturally appropriate case transform. > > NO. I really mean "default" in a technical sense, not something someone > tailors to local needs. > The ? was introduced to have an invertible casing, just like > compatibility codepoints were assigned to make preservation of old > formating information available if a translation back to some obsolete > charset is necessary. > > _This new letter was invented to allow for 1:1 roundtrip conversion._ The letter was not *invented*. It was discovered (= identified as occurring in actual writing) and encoded. It was encoded to match a character with a unique shape and properties. One of them of *being* a capital letter and the other one of ? being its lowercase equivalent. > > toUpper() shall change "?" to "?" instead of "SS", just to allow > toLower() producing back "?" instead of a wrong spelling with "ss" > (which at the moment can only be avoided using a german dictionary - a > really heavy constraint to a small function like toLower - and for > family names simply not possible at all - the information is lost). Your problem is that you assume an implementation of toUpper that takes no argument. For purposes like text design, publication etc. you want an implementation that selects which locale should set the rules. (Or one, where that setting is done behind the scenes, which is logically equivalent). Without specifiying the locale, your beautiful toUpper() does not now that in Turkish, 'i' is not mapped to 'I' but to CAPITAL I WITH DOT. Because your beautiful toUpper does not handle at least one language means that it should not need to handle any languages. Instead it should be stable. What you are describing is a change to the toUpper() that is invoked with the german locale as parameter (or selected behind the scenes). There's not the same requirement for that one to be stable, although sometimes transitions are implemented by creating a separate locale for "old" and "new" orthographies and the like. When it comes to case conversion, purpose matters. This doesn't detract from the need to have implementations that do the "right" thing (as currently defined) for a given language. And from the need to enable these by default for ordinary text manipulation. But it's not the same thing as overriding an "identifier-safe" or "filesystem-safe" implementation, just because that's incorrectly viewed as a "default" that should be applicable to text manipulation. A./ > > This is a really bad situation, which should be fixed as soon as > possible, not a matter of taste. > And it should be fixed explicitly in automatic text processing - because > this is were today errors are produced, that can now be avoided. > In private letters it doesn't matter what form is used - the people > write whatever they want anyway. But automatic processing shall not drop > information that can not be brought back (expcept with re-introducing > this knowledge back manually). > >> And what is "best"? can change over time. > No. Fixing this round-trip bug is in the best interest of unicode and > that won't change over time. Using "SS" in all uppercase text was always > a bad workaround that became a source of spelling errors by automatic > text processing and for which a fix was invented some ten years ago. So > lets use it everywhere - at least now that it is officially allowed > (since 2017) and even preferred (since this year). > > From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 00:13:31 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 22:13:31 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> On 12/1/2024 9:09 PM, David Starner via Unicode wrote: > On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 7:54?PM Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode > wrote: >> But in automatic text processing the old form is simply a bug that needs >> to be fixed. The new form has to be the "default" - otherwise >> implementations will proliferate this bug forever. > Various systems take for granted that case folding is stable. Very much agreed on that one. Usually in the context of "identifiers" and not in free text. > Differences in how Unicode data is interpreted has open security holes > in systems, and while this isn't particularly likely with this change, > it is possible, which is part of the reason case-folding is guaranteed > to be stable. Such a change can confuse case-insensitive filesystems, > or change the interpretation of code in case-insensitive filesystems. > The automated default isn't going to change, and German is going to > have to join Turkish in that purely default case-conversion just > doesn't work for them. > Again, it would help to mentally change from "default" to some other term, like the "InvariantCulture" terminology used by .NET, for example. By "default", if I start editing a document, I should not have to worry about getting a deficient case mapping/case conversion implementation just because I'm using the "wrong" language. Likewise, by default, I should never get the locale-dependent case conversion invoked when accessing file systems or domain names. These are different "defaults". A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marius.spix at web.de Mon Dec 2 04:19:32 2024 From: marius.spix at web.de (Marius Spix) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 10:19:32 +0000 Subject: Aw: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> Message-ID: That problem is not not new. The long ?, which is only used in old Fraktur script, but not in modern Antiqua script, has the same issue. It shares its uppercase form S with the round s, which behaves differently than the Greek final Sigma ? and can appear mid-word, for example in compound words. For example: to_lower(to_upper("Hau?t?r")) returns "Haust?r", which is inaccurate. That can even make a difference, because "Werksirene" and "Werk?irene" or "Antragsteller" and "Antrag?teller" have completely different meanings. Gesendet: Montag, 2. Dezember 2024 um 02:48 Von: "Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode" An: unicode at corp.unicode.org CC: "Dominikus Dittes Scherkl" Betreff: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping Am 30.11.24 um 18:16 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > On 11/27/2024 12:15 PM, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > However, speaking of this as a "default" is confusing to readers who > think in terms of text processing or authoring environments where a > different set of requirements rule. Here, the proper "default" is the > best implementation of a culturally appropriate case transform. NO. I really mean "default" in a technical sense, not something someone tailors to local needs. The ? was introduced to have an invertible casing, just like compatibility codepoints were assigned to make preservation of old formating information available if a translation back to some obsolete charset is necessary. _This new letter was invented to allow for 1:1 roundtrip conversion._ toUpper() shall change "?" to "?" instead of "SS", just to allow toLower() producing back "?" instead of a wrong spelling with "ss" (which at the moment can only be avoided using a german dictionary - a really heavy constraint to a small function like toLower - and for family names simply not possible at all - the information is lost). This is a really bad situation, which should be fixed as soon as possible, not a matter of taste. And it should be fixed explicitly in automatic text processing - because this is were today errors are produced, that can now be avoided. In private letters it doesn't matter what form is used - the people write whatever they want anyway. But automatic processing shall not drop information that can not be brought back (expcept with re-introducing this knowledge back manually). > And what is "best" can change over time. No. Fixing this round-trip bug is in the best interest of unicode and that won't change over time. Using "SS" in all uppercase text was always a bad workaround that became a source of spelling errors by automatic text processing and for which a fix was invented some ten years ago. So lets use it everywhere - at least now that it is officially allowed (since 2017) and even preferred (since this year). From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 2 04:33:25 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:33:25 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> Am 02.12.24 um 07:13 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > On 12/1/2024 9:09 PM, David Starner via Unicode wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 7:54?PM Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode >> wrote: >>> But in automatic text processing the old form is simply a bug that needs >>> to be fixed. The new form has to be the "default" - otherwise >>> implementations will proliferate this bug forever. >> Various systems take for granted that case folding is stable. But that is the problem with the old casing: IT IS NOT STABLE! toLower(toUpper("?"))=="ss" - this is simply wrong, no matter which language or locale you are using (beside the fact that is is nowhere used except in the german languages). This is the reason why the new "?" was invented - to allow roundtrip without modifying the text! > Very much agreed on that one. Usually in the context of "identifiers" > and not in free text. Especially for security reasons, the casing should be changed - to not lose the "?" in your name and therefore beeing considered a different person IN YOUR LEGAL DOCUMENTS - the most important identifier of all! >> Differences in how Unicode data is interpreted has open security holes >> in systems, and while this isn't particularly likely with this change, >> it is possible, which is part of the reason case-folding is guaranteed >> to be stable. Such a change can confuse case-insensitive filesystems, Beside the fact that case-insensitive filesystems are a pain in the ass, especially there it is necessary to not lose the information wether something contained a "?" or a "ss" - which with the old casing was not possible. >> or change the interpretation of code in case-insensitive filesystems. >> The automated default isn't going to change, and German is going to >> have to join Turkish in that purely default case-conversion just >> doesn't work for them. Unlike turkish, which has a different uppercase for "i" - which is used differently in pretty much _any_ other latin-script using language, "?" is not used differently in any other language. It is not used in any other language at all. > By "default", if I start editing a document, I should not have to worry > about getting a deficient case mapping/case conversion implementation > just because I'm using the "wrong" language. Correct. This is why the case mapping should be changed _for all_ languages and locales. The default should be changed. Noone should be using the old casing, except if he specially tailors his system to use it. > Likewise, by default, I should never get the locale-dependent case > conversion invoked when accessing file systems or domain names. Correct. But with the old mapping, the system will unwanted change my name from "He?" to "HESS" - and that cannot be undone if I start using a case-sensitive filesystem, unless I know that it is wrong and change it back manually. The new mapping is there to fix that. So please, start using it! NOW. From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 2 04:38:56 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:38:56 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> Message-ID: Am 02.12.24 um 11:19 schrieb Marius Spix via Unicode: > That problem is not not new. The long ?, which is only used in old Fraktur script, but not in modern Antiqua script, has the same issue. It shares its uppercase form S with the round s, which behaves differently than the Greek final Sigma ? and can appear mid-word, for example in compound words. > > For example: to_lower(to_upper("Hau?t?r")) returns "Haust?r", which is inaccurate. > > That can even make a difference, because "Werksirene" and "Werk?irene" or "Antragsteller" and "Antrag?teller" have completely different meanings. Yes, but at least the long ? is not used in legal names (today). This is the main source of problems. Otherwise, I am sure, we would now have a new upper-case form of long ?. :-) From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 2 04:47:38 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:47:38 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: Am 02.12.24 um 06:50 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > Good luck banning SS in "all Germans". What a nonsense. Nobody wants this. Of course "ss" continues to be used - not only in swiss german. This is about the default for case-mapping. uppercase "ss" was, is, and will ever be "SS". But the uppercase of "?" should now be "?". And it only matters in automatic text processing, to prevent "?" from beeing changed to "ss" - by some stupid case-insensitive filesystem or whatever. From ivanpan3 at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 05:18:08 2024 From: ivanpan3 at gmail.com (Ivan Panchenko) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 12:18:08 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <5dea826a-0264-421e-9cd4-5b7225d05600@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <5dea826a-0264-421e-9cd4-5b7225d05600@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: For some perspective: The sharp s is made of the long s, which just corresponds to a capital round S in uppercase*; this is why the capital sharp S is not uncontroversial. To this day, ??? is rather exotic and people usually write ?SS? or (non-official) ???. While I like the capital letter, it may not be Unicode?s responsibility to promote it. (* Though the Ehmcke antiqua does have a capital long S, which resembles an integral sign!) Daniel Buncic via Unicode : > Remember, the new > wording that expresses a preference for ? over SS (or at least treats > them equally) was only published this year, with the new Duden edition > (which is what people actually read rather than the official rules) > coming out in August, just 3? months ago. This is how Duden currently explains it: ?Bei Verwendung von Gro?buchstaben steht traditionellerweise SS f?r ?. In manchen Schriften gibt es aber auch einen entsprechenden Gro?buchstaben; seine Verwendung ist fakultativ ?? 25 E3?.? ?In Dokumenten kann bei Namen aus Gr?nden der Eindeutigkeit auch bei Gro?buchstaben anstelle von Doppel-s bzw. gro?em Eszett das kleine ? verwendet werden.? So not exactly prominently featured (?in some fonts?). And again, I find it highly unlikely that the Rat ever intended to make a recommendation here, given that they do not make one regarding ?Geografie?/?Geographie? etc. From cate at cateee.net Mon Dec 2 05:25:10 2024 From: cate at cateee.net (Giacomo Catenazzi) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 12:25:10 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> Message-ID: I think you are taking the issue personally, and in a myopic view. On 2024-12-02 11:33, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > Am 02.12.24 um 07:13 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: >> On 12/1/2024 9:09 PM, David Starner via Unicode wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 7:54?PM Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode >>> wrote: >>>> But in automatic text processing the old form is simply a bug that >>>> needs >>>> to be fixed. The new form has to be the "default" - otherwise >>>> implementations will proliferate this bug forever. >>> Various systems take for granted that case folding is stable. > But that is the problem with the old casing: IT IS NOT STABLE! > toLower(toUpper("?"))=="ss" - this is simply wrong, no matter which > language or locale you are using (beside the fact that is is nowhere > used except in the german languages). This is the reason why the new "?" > was invented - to allow roundtrip without modifying the text! So you want to break many files? If you change the machine translation, you will have conflicting (and possibly disappearing documents), because filesystems in Windows (and default in macos) are case insensitive. >> Very much agreed on that one. Usually in the context of "identifiers" >> and not in free text. > Especially for security reasons, the casing should be changed - to not > lose the "?" in your name and therefore beeing considered a different > person IN YOUR LEGAL DOCUMENTS - the most important identifier of all! As people said: that it is a different case, which should be handled outside the machine translation. You are speaking about legal documents, but in reality only on German legal documents, so as other said: it should be put in local casing. In Switzerland we do not want such legal distinction. >>> or change the interpretation of code in case-insensitive filesystems. >>> The automated default isn't going to change, and German is going to >>> have to join Turkish in that purely default case-conversion just >>> doesn't work for them. > Unlike turkish, which has a different uppercase for "i" - which is used > differently in pretty much _any_ other latin-script using language, "?" > is not used differently in any other language. It is not used in any > other language at all. Switzerland uses it differently. giacomo From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 2 07:08:09 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 14:08:09 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> Message-ID: Am 02.12.24 um 12:25 schrieb Giacomo Catenazzi via Unicode: > I think you are taking the issue personally, and in a myopic view. Na, fortunately my name doesn't contain ?, so I really don't care. But it brings me up that something practically nobody ever needs _except_ some few people who have legal problems with it, can not be changed to something that fixes their problem and won't harm anyone else. And that only because "it has to be stable". The new letter is there to disentangle two things that were unnecessarily conflated. > So you want to break many files? If you change the machine translation, > you will have conflicting (and possibly disappearing documents), because > filesystems in Windows (and default in macos) are case insensitive. No. I want to be able if I have 2 files "Wei?.doc" and "Weiss.doc" on my system and copy them to windows, to get 2 files "WEI?.DOC" and "WEISS.DOC". But what I get now is 1 file, because the second one overwrites the first one, as from Windows point of view they both have the same name. This is awful garbage and should be fixed! And if you copy a whole drive to windows, would you even recognize that some files were silently dropped? If you are lucky, you may get some strange message: "File xy already exists. Do you want to overwrite it?". But I won't count on it. >> Especially for security reasons, the casing should be changed - to not >> lose the "?" in your name and therefore beeing considered a different >> person IN YOUR LEGAL DOCUMENTS - the most important identifier of all! > > As people said: that it is a different case, which should be handled > outside the machine translation. No, this is the only relevant case. Legal documents often use all-uppercase and thereby garbles names containing ?. In manual processing you can always choose yourself what letter you want to use. And if anywhere some ? occurs and you don't like it, you are always free to replace it by SS. But leaving it there can never be more than an aesthetic problem. On the other hand the old uppercase can be a serious problem. > so as other said: it should be put in local casing. In > Switzerland we do not want such legal distinction. Swiss doesn't use ?, so there is no problem for them. But I suspect people going to Switzerland still want their names to be spelled correct. Maybe the Swiss government doesn't care for this problem, but it won't hurt them if by accident (changing their sacred default casing) their systems would no more annoy foreign people, no? >> Unlike turkish, which has a different uppercase for "i" - which is used >> differently in pretty much _any_ other latin-script using language, "?" >> is not used differently in any other language. It is not used in any >> other language at all. > Switzerland uses it differently. Yeah, it doesn't use it at all. But then, why should they care what the uppercase of a letter they don't use is? How does Switzerland handle foreign names containing ?? -- Dominikus Dittes Scherkl From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 2 07:24:05 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 14:24:05 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <5dea826a-0264-421e-9cd4-5b7225d05600@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: Am 02.12.24 um 12:18 schrieb Ivan Panchenko via Unicode: > it may not be Unicode?s responsibility to promote it. It has nothing to do with promotion. I think from the start it was the intention to make the uppercase of ? unambiguous by adding a new glyph. But germany insisted (until 2017) to use the old uppercase (and nobody else cared). Now germany has given up the resistance, so naturally the default should be changed as intended. Especially as this would fix some problems (like the case-insensitive file-copy and the legal names in all-uppercase documents). > So not exactly prominently featured (?in some fonts?). And again, I > find it highly unlikely that the Rat ever intended to make a > recommendation here No, they just given up the resistance to something that was intended to fix a bug. From junicode at jcbradfield.org Mon Dec 2 07:24:20 2024 From: junicode at jcbradfield.org (Julian Bradfield) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 13:24:20 +0000 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> Message-ID: On 2024-12-02, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > No. I want to be able if I have 2 files "Wei?.doc" and "Weiss.doc" on my > system and copy them to windows, to get 2 files "WEI?.DOC" and "WEISS.DOC". You can't have two files called "Weiss.doc" and "weiss.doc" and expect to copy them both to Windows and get two files. Why is this case any worse? From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 2 07:37:51 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 14:37:51 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> Message-ID: Am 02.12.24 um 14:24 schrieb Julian Bradfield via Unicode: > On 2024-12-02, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: >> No. I want to be able if I have 2 files "Wei?.doc" and "Weiss.doc" on my >> system and copy them to windows, to get 2 files "WEI?.DOC" and "WEISS.DOC". > > You can't have two files called "Weiss.doc" and "weiss.doc" and expect > to copy them both to Windows and get two files. Why is this case any worse? Ok, you are right. Case-insensitive file-systems simply sucks. No gain in trying to fix them. From marius.spix at web.de Mon Dec 2 09:25:38 2024 From: marius.spix at web.de (Marius Spix) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:25:38 +0000 Subject: Aw: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <716676e3-215d-42f9-a72e-5d0e08f9717e@ix.netcom.com> <1f36d0d0-c64f-421c-ae66-feff3ba74dbd@gmx.de> Message-ID: Gesendet: Montag, 2. Dezember 2024 um 14:37 Von: "Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode" An: unicode at corp.unicode.org CC: "Dominikus Dittes Scherkl" Betreff: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping Am 02.12.24 um 14:24 schrieb Julian Bradfield via Unicode: > On 2024-12-02, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: >> No. I want to be able if I have 2 files "Wei?.doc" and "Weiss.doc" on my >> system and copy them to windows, to get 2 files "WEI?.DOC" and "WEISS.DOC". > > You can't have two files called "Weiss.doc" and "weiss.doc" and expect > to copy them both to Windows and get two files. Why is this case any worse? Ok, you are right. Case-insensitive file-systems simply sucks. No gain in trying to fix them. The files "weiss.txt" and "wei?.txt" CAN exist on NTFS, VFAT, FAT32, exFAT and ReFS at the same time. For "wei?.txt" an extended filename "WEI~1.TXT" is generated for downward compatibility with software expecting 8.3 filenames. NTFS and ReFS do support a case-sensitive mode, which is not enabled by default. Even if the case-sensitive mode is off, "weiss.txt" and "wei?.txt" are considered to be distinct files. However, this won't work with some software like OneDrive or Sharepoint, which do not allow "weiss.txt" and "wei?.txt" in the same directory. Case-sensitive file systems are supported by the Windows kernel (there is a registry setting called ObCaseInsensitive). This is required for special use cases like GNU on Windows (GOW), but it is not enabled by default, because it would break compatibility legacy software. From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 14:06:34 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 21:06:34 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote in <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117 at uni-koeln.de>: |Am 01.12.2024 um 04:15 schrieb Markus Scherer via Unicode: |> As a library implementer and German speaker, I have been looking out |> for the supposed sea change in usage, and haven't seen it. | |There are three things that make the change less visible. First, domain |names and other ASCII environments as well as stylistic devices. I live |in a town called Br?hl and work in a city called K?ln (which has its own |top-level domain, .koeln). You see a surprising number of signage, |logos, etc. which spell the names as ?Bruehl? or ?Koeln?: | https://www.cvjm.koeln/ueber-uns/175-jahre.html | https://mhi-koeln.de/ | http://kleinbahn.koeln/ | https://koeln-weekend.de/ | https://www.ebay.de/str/koelnartkunsthandel Not surprising but tradition. Please let me attach a colourized photographie of K?ln from when Germany still had an emperor, with hand painted plaques, and on the plaque of the ferry (beside the ponton bridge) one can read "Ueberfahrt nach K?ln". (A bit size reduced but readable.) ... |A few years ago, the number of capital ? you could see was exactly zero. | Now they are popping up more and more. For the above reasons, they |are not the majority yet, but they are increasing fast. Language change |is happening in front of our eyes. Because you get urged by the wind, that is the reason. And yes, it gets more schizophrenic now you can use this letter but have to write aufw?ndiger Missstand instead of aufwendiger Mi?stand. But nice to read your fluent german, i do not often speak in my native language! --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: d13-koeln.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 93615 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 14:15:44 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 21:15:44 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <20241202201544.IA3hVYIX@steffen%sdaoden.eu> David Starner via Unicode wrote in : |On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:35?PM Markus Scherer via Unicode | wrote: ... |[.]Searching Books for Der |gro?e Gatsby shows 12 or 13 distinct covers, 6 with DER (or Der) |GROSSE GATSBY on the cover, three with DER (or Der) GRO?E GATSBY, and |4 with lowercase titles. A few dated back to 2006, so it's not a |trivial sample of modern covers. And please do not use that book as an example, it surely was mentioned maliciously given that it is a short book that flies by in a rush, as in a state of euphoria, or better even intoxication. It is an examplary of anglo-saxon lifestyle, and even though Germany has become a hundred percent vassal that throws much more money over the ocean for false things than is healthy or advisable (just to name Monsanto), under the surface there is a long history that points to different things. |The standard is written in English . If you have trouble understanding |a particular section, read it again and again and again . . . Sit up |straight. Eat your vegetables. Do not mumble. -- _Pascal_, ISO 7185 |(1991) Ah! I see. No gotos. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 14:54:56 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 21:54:56 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <499cca63-5d54-495d-960c-fada639001e5@uni-konstanz.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <499cca63-5d54-495d-960c-fada639001e5@uni-konstanz.de> Message-ID: <20241202205456.h9IkPd8-@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Otto Stolz wrote in <499cca63-5d54-495d-960c-fada639001e5 at uni-konstanz.de>: |am 2024-12-01 um 1:44?Uhr hat Steffen Nurpmeso geschrieben: |> Yes, and Stra?e/STRASSE is such a thing if there is Gasse/GASSE |> but which just has the same "S-sound", and always had since the |> earth existsed (1972). Was it Ga?e, ever? | |No, never. | |In German orthography, double consonants mark the preceding vowel as |being short (if there isn?t just a mere co-incidence in a compound, |e.?g. ?Mausschwanz? (mouse tail)). As the ?a? in ?Stra?e? is long, |you write ???;?as the ?a? in ?Gasse? is short, you write ?ss?. |Cf. |and . Thank you very much. I really lost all my knowledge except what "came in with the mother milk", so to say. There exist names "Ga?", and the community K?lz has a district "Ga?". Funnily, maybe, if i search Google for K?lz and use the Map to zoom in, one sees "Gass", but as you zoom in, very nearby, "Gass" changes to "Ga?". Haha! That one goes to Doug Ewell!! https://www.google.com/maps/place/55471+K%C3%BClz+(Hunsr%C3%BCck)/@50.0034197,7.5056758,16z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47be11df4212946b:0xfb88c8d936405a1e!8m2!3d50.0061079!4d7.4893107!16s%2Fm%2F02z3fnp?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTEyNC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From prosfilaes at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 15:12:04 2024 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 15:12:04 -0600 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <9f8e28dd-bb1a-4d47-98fc-93236c0fd2b7@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <9f8e28dd-bb1a-4d47-98fc-93236c0fd2b7@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 11:27?PM Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote: > What you are arguing is that one should not use that fallback any > longer. I have no arguments with that, but in this case, the fallback > was used. Let me break it down into two points. Starting with the less controversial, when counting the use of the capital ?, one should count ? in uppercase contexts separately from SS. Secondly, is there a position that ? should be used in uppercase contexts, especially as opposed to using ?? If there's absolutely no such movement, I think it clear that ? should be counted as a glyph variant of ? in uppercase contexts. Fallbacks like that are almost always normalized; older texts usually have long-s turned to s and scriptorial abbreviations expanded when published, for example. If there is a serious movement against ? and for ? as uppercase, then I'm wrong. I'm certainly biased towards having neat upper-lowercase pairs. -- The standard is written in English . If you have trouble understanding a particular section, read it again and again and again . . . Sit up straight. Eat your vegetables. Do not mumble. -- _Pascal_, ISO 7185 (1991) From daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de Mon Dec 2 15:29:27 2024 From: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de (Daniel Buncic) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 22:29:27 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> Am 02.12.2024 um 21:06 schrieb Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode: > Not surprising but tradition. Please let me attach a colourized > photographie of K?ln from when Germany still had an emperor, with > hand painted plaques, and on the plaque of the ferry (beside the > ponton bridge) one can read "Ueberfahrt nach K?ln". (A bit size > reduced but readable.) A very nice photograph. However, the case with ?Ueberfahrt? is a completely different one. That has to do with the fact that in old letterpress printing there was no space for diacritics above capitals. This is why ? had to be replaced with Ue, just like a) in Czech until the 19th century, Cz was written instead of ?, S? instead of ?, etc., b) Polish ? was often simply written as Z without the dot or replaced with ?, which is still often written in handwriting, c) there is an official rule in French orthography to this day that you do not have to place accent marks on capitals, which means that you can choose between ?Etat? and ??tat?, d) Greek diacritics are placed before capitals, e.g. ???? for the mountain Athos (where ???? would simply be wrong), e) in Italian you can often see things like CAFFE? instead of CAFF?, etc. But K?ln, with a small ?, is spelled ?K?ln? on the same sign; there was no reason for ?Koeln?. The modern examples I gave are different, they have ?Koeln? or even ?koeln? for completely different reasons. And these reasons are the same as for writing ss instead of ? in many similar cases; that?s why I brought them up. > And yes, it gets more schizophrenic now you can use this letter but > have to write aufw?ndiger Missstand instead of aufwendiger Mi?stand. I don?t think we have to discuss the spelling reform of 1998 here... Best wishes, Daniel -- Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? =============================================================== Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K =============================================================== Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 =============================================================== From marius.spix at web.de Mon Dec 2 15:34:09 2024 From: marius.spix at web.de (Marius Spix) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 21:34:09 +0000 Subject: Aw: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markus.icu at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 15:35:55 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:35:55 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <9f8e28dd-bb1a-4d47-98fc-93236c0fd2b7@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 1:15?PM David Starner via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > Secondly, is there a position that ? should be used in uppercase > contexts, especially as opposed to using ?? If there's absolutely no > such movement, I think it clear that ? should be counted as a glyph > variant of ? in uppercase contexts. There is no "movement". It has long been one of the in-use spellings, for when people wanted to disambiguate and the new capital version didn't yet exist, or for whatever reasons if in new publications. Characters can be displayed in a variety of glyphs, but claiming that even if it uses a glyph in the range of character x it is "intended" to actually be character y which has a different range of glyphs, destroys its character identity. If you do that, then all bets are off. Who is to say that any of the uppercase-looking things are actually glyphs for uppercase characters? They might as well be glyph variations for their lowercase characters. markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 15:37:45 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:37:45 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <9f8e28dd-bb1a-4d47-98fc-93236c0fd2b7@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <4b439b39-182d-43ec-a733-eb60ba4660d0@ix.netcom.com> On 12/2/2024 1:12 PM, David Starner via Unicode wrote: > On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 11:27?PM Asmus Freytag via Unicode > wrote: >> What you are arguing is that one should not use that fallback any >> longer. I have no arguments with that, but in this case, the fallback >> was used. > Let me break it down into two points. Starting with the less > controversial, when counting the use of the capital ?, one should > count ? in uppercase contexts separately from SS. Wait, what are we counting now? > Secondly, is there a position that ? should be used in uppercase > contexts, especially as opposed to using ?? I've stated, as fact, that the example shows a fallback using the lowercase in an ALL CAPS context. This fallback was discussed extensively as part of the background research for the proposal to encode the uppercase form. Therefore, the fallback is not a simple typo, but something that was practiced and perhaps even recommended by some (at the time). As you quote, I agreeing with whoever I replied to that the fallback has outlived its usefulness. So your question here is disingenuous. > If there's absolutely no > such movement, I think it clear that ? should be counted as a glyph > variant of ? in uppercase contexts. Different letters aren't glyph variants of each other, they are alternate spellings. I have no issue with acknowledging that alternate spellings exist in this context (ALL CAPS). Incidentally, SS is also one of the alternate spellings. I would be happy if things settled to where the single capital letter becomes the preferred spelling. But that's different from reading a lowercase letter "as if" it were the uppercase one. > Fallbacks like that are almost > always normalized; older texts usually have long-s turned to s and > scriptorial abbreviations expanded when published, for example. If > there is a serious movement against ? and for ? as uppercase, then I'm > wrong. I'm certainly biased towards having neat upper-lowercase pairs. Yes, and strawman argument. Nobody is asking for a "movement against ? and for ? as uppercase ", but we are arguing against calling a lowercase letter an uppercase letter (in a specific example where the glyph clearly marks it as the lowercase one). Pretending that alternate spellings aren't used is not helpful. And it's not required as a precondition to having a preferred spelling different from the example we discussed. A./ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 15:47:28 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:47:28 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: On 12/2/2024 1:29 PM, Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote: > write aufw?ndiger Missstand instead of aufwendiger Mi?stand. /?I vote for /aufwendiger Missstand. A./ // -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 16:00:31 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 23:00:31 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20241202220031.ZmBRuneC@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Hello. Asmus Freytag wrote in : |On 11/30/2024 4:44 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> Doug Ewell via Unicode wrote in |> l\ |> ook.com>: |>|Thanks to Asmus for saying what I had planned to say, except that his \ |>|was better-worded, more carefully put together, and more authoritative. |>| |>|Casing for text meant for human readers should follow current local \ |>|conventions. |>| |>|Casing for text meant for machine processing (file systems, databases, \ |>|etc.) must remain stable, even when local conventions change. |> |> Sorry that makes totally no sense to me. | |Because you probably have never considered what havoc would be caused by Well this thread has become over my head anyway. I am not a linguist, not a Germanist, i have not followed this path; It is only i feel pain if poets -- so-called, and not so-called, this gets philosophic now, and political, in modern times, when one can say the most terrible aggressive nonsense and wish death to people, and all that without being silenced, whereas even the world-wide known Documenta art exhibition had to first cover and then remove an image which was interpreted as being antisemitic (in a crowd of policemen with helmets and baton one could (well, a bit, but indeed) be seen aka viewed as a Jew aka Israel, and we know they are not policemen. It *could* be that was what they did not like.), start to decompose the German language. It always changed, over the centuries, the "Teutsch" that it was centuries ago is very different from what is known as German today. That much is plain. Very different. Today too much english is entering, and i for one still totally dislike the last spelling reform, it was one of my "turn off head here" moments. (Like, about almost a decade before that one, i as a very good pupil who loved to learn Latin went on the "tin drum" path and turned away from Latin, once a CDU (right republican) state secretary gave a talk show interview in all Latin, and i still can here the wonderful Lea Rosh (jew btw) say "*Ich* verstehe Sie, aber was ist mit den Menschen da drau?en?" (i understand you, but what is with the people out there?), so, not to "waver in the wind like the grain" (is that Binding?), i stopped supporting Latin, which was a costly decision. Anyhow. |changing in mid-stream anything about the processing of identifiers and |similar strings that are not text, but unambiguous references to |domains, files or other resources. But that .. not. You know, if Unicode aware software *really* uses code points with such special properties in a form that can lead to ambiguities later on, it is just more dumb than i am. And .. is it?? |(You can make some changes when you create a new domain and set rules |for it for the first time, but that's about it). | |> I would, however, not bring in uppercase sharp S for quite some |> time. But at some time, or when really the SS would be banned "in |> all Germans" which are used as official languages, sooner that is, |> then the current Unicode data would be just wrong. | |Good luck banning SS in "all Germans". I never had the intention. If the Swiss people like to write Missstand, they can do so. It is likely easier to speak out than Mi?stand when your belly is full of Raclette cheese!!! |You probably did not consider the fact that German written in |Switzerland only uses ss and SS and therefore banning SS would be more |than confusing. It would needless compromise a well accepted local |orthography. No!!! I have been well introduced to the Swiss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAKk8IcLo18 |German written in Germany has undergone a transition, and as partially |as a result of / but mostly in parallel to that transition, we see a |secondary shift in capitalization away from a typewriter / telegraph |inspired fallback to a more natural way of writing where all letters |have a case pair and casing is reversible. Hm. Who says that? I think, but i definetely would hope for, after waiting some years, some sense is coming back, you know. Frenziness, greed, hypocrisy, lies, and all that, that is not a sane foundation for a society. That, who would have believed *that*, is already written down in "the book" of the (jews and) christians. Really. I hope for some kind of re-re-education. At the moment, however, it looks as if that could then lead into the totally wrong direction, from my very own point of view, of course. Regardless, i think good German will have a renaissance. (Away from "Fack ju G?hte". To "more light!", to say with G?the.) | ?The same cannot be said for Swiss German. There's not been a similar |transition, which would have needed to start with lower case usage. As |long as the Swiss don't use ?, I can't see them banning "SS". Yes, in my opinion Unicode cannot (should not that is) do anything unless this is unambiguous. It seems there are still swiss humans alive who have grown up with that letter.(?) I, to say it again, would not implement any immediate change. I would possibly look into this issue in a few years from now on. And who knows, maybe German goes back to sz even, i think slavonic languages still use that, and Germans are at least historically bound to or related with the slavonic world, in not small parts. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 16:22:34 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 23:22:34 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: [private] German sharp S uppercase mapping Message-ID: <20241202222234.YDtJaNMU@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Several Reply-To: follows today.. --- Forwarded from Steffen Nurpmeso --- Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 20:52:08 +0100 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [private] German sharp S uppercase mapping Message-ID: <20241202195208.puaParvJ at steffen%sdaoden.eu> Doug Ewell wrote in : |Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: | |>|Casing for text meant for human readers should follow current local |>|conventions. |>| |>|Casing for text meant for machine processing (file systems, |>|databases, etc.) must remain stable, even when local conventions |>|change. |> |> Sorry that makes totally no sense to me. | |I am guessing you haven?t had to provide support for systems (computer \ |or otherwise) which depend on standards that are not stable, or which \ |introduce their own instability. Sure, i use ISO C (ha!), not to mention IDNA 2003/8. |When your internal database lookup function expects the uppercase form \ |of ?schlie?en? to be ?SCHLIESSEN?, and one day the user-level function \ |fails because the internal lookup now expects ?SCHLIE?EN?, it won?t \ |matter much that the internal function is more correct. Sounds like bad design really. Ok ok that sounds fat now, but really i have a hard time transposing your words to real life software. You know, and that is *so* bad in real life (i actually drowned in examples, some of which i produced myself). Unicode has stability, U+00DF is small and U+1E9E is uppercase. The issue is old it seems: # (cd /x/doc/coding/charset-plus/data/; grep -ri 1E9E) [hand selected lines] auxiliary/SentenceBreakProperty.txt:1E9E ; Upper # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S extracted/DerivedName.txt:1E9E ; LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S extracted/DerivedGeneralCategory.txt:1E9E ; Lu # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S CaseFolding.txt:1E9E; F; 0073 0073; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S CaseFolding.txt:1E9E; S; 00DF; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S DerivedCoreProperties.txt:1E9E ; Uppercase # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S DerivedCoreProperties.txt:1E9E ; Changes_When_Lowercased # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S ^ here DerivedCoreProperties.txt:1E9E ; Changes_When_Casefolded # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S ^ here DerivedCoreProperties.txt:1E9E ; Changes_When_Casemapped # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S ^ here DerivedNormalizationProps.txt:1E9E ; NFKC_CF; 0073 0073 # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S DerivedNormalizationProps.txt:1E9E ; Changes_When_NFKC_Casefolded # L& LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S NamesList.txt: * uppercase is "SS" or 1E9E NamesList.txt:1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S UnicodeData.txt:1E9E;LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S;Lu;0;L;;;;;N;;;;00DF; So a complete implementation dealing with Unicode always had to deal with this issue. Even my s-ctext which i started by the end of March 2013 and practically stopped in October 2013 due to a CVE to a codebase i maintain, without having been informed on it, that is, but to which i will hopefully come back at a later time, knew about that already. #?0|kent:.s-ctext.git$ git grep -i Changes_When_Lowercase master|wc -l 573 #?0|kent:.s-ctext.git$ git grep -i Changes_When_Lowercase master|tail -1 master:tools/ucd-props.h:# define sct_Changes_When_Lowercased (1ull<<47) (I want to point out that the header comments /* Aiieeh, we cannot use enum due to datatype restrictions <-> portability */) -- End forward <20241202195208.puaParvJ at steffen%sdaoden.eu> --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 16:37:15 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 23:37:15 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <20241202223715.nxhqYlcp@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote in <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397 at uni-koeln.de>: |Am 02.12.2024 um 21:06 schrieb Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode: |> Not surprising but tradition. Please let me attach a colourized |> photographie of K?ln from when Germany still had an emperor, with |> hand painted plaques, and on the plaque of the ferry (beside the |> ponton bridge) one can read "Ueberfahrt nach K?ln". (A bit size |> reduced but readable.) | |A very nice photograph. However, the case with ?Ueberfahrt? is a |completely different one. That has to do with the fact that in old |letterpress printing there was no space for diacritics above capitals. |This is why ? had to be replaced with Ue, just like a) in Czech until |the 19th century, Cz was written instead of ?, S? instead of ?, etc., b) |Polish ? was often simply written as Z without the dot or replaced with |?, which is still often written in handwriting, c) there is an official |rule in French orthography to this day that you do not have to place |accent marks on capitals, which means that you can choose between ?Etat? |and ??tat?, d) Greek diacritics are placed before capitals, e.g. ???? |for the mountain Athos (where ???? would simply be wrong), e) in Italian |you can often see things like CAFFE? instead of CAFF?, etc. But K?ln, |with a small ?, is spelled ?K?ln? on the same sign; there was no reason Ok. Interesting discourse, thanks. |for ?Koeln?. The modern examples I gave are different, they have |?Koeln? or even ?koeln? for completely different reasons. And these |reasons are the same as for writing ss instead of ? in many similar |cases; that?s why I brought them up. | |> And yes, it gets more schizophrenic now you can use this letter but |> have to write aufw?ndiger Missstand instead of aufwendiger Mi?stand. | |I don?t think we have to discuss the spelling reform of 1998 here... Now as a conservative person i want to point to that photo of Frankfurt/Main, where it is uppercase STRASSE, and i for one am not keen to use an uppercase ?, however nice it is integrated into german keyboard layout aka ?. |Best wishes, Ciao, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: d15-frankfurt.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 127533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 16:38:05 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 23:38:05 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <20241202223805.wiROsKEr@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote in : |On 12/2/2024 1:29 PM, Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote: |> write aufw?ndiger Missstand instead of aufwendiger Mi?stand. | |/?I vote for /aufwendiger Missstand. I need to aufwenden some time to transzendent that. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 2 16:40:20 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2024 23:40:20 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20241202224020.836X6bjE@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Marius Spix wrote in : |There are other examples, for example the street names Oelm?hlenstra?e \ |in Bielefeld and An der Oelm?hle in Straelen. (In some town names like \ |Straelen or Baesweiler, the ae is |correct. This is a strech e, similar in English bid/bead.) We got a logical and interesting response for why this hand-painted plaque looked like it did. (There are also umlauts where for example the dots of the U are "inside it", or mostly look only like a line inside it. But i only know that for U.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From mark at kli.org Mon Dec 2 19:07:51 2024 From: mark at kli.org (Mark E. Shoulson) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 20:07:51 -0500 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> I remember when the debate about adding ? was ongoing here on this list.? There were lots of old fonts shown which had a distinct uppercase ?.? I remember that some insisted there was no such letter, pointing to the pronouncements of the then-current Gro?e Duden, which said that ? capitalizes to SS, and yet the cover of *that very book*, in all-capital letters an inch high, clearly showed its title as DER GRO?E DUDEN. We can find the discussion in the list archives somewhere. Suffice to say, ? does seem to be a real thing and seems to have been so even before it was recognized. ~mark From markus.icu at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 19:27:14 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 17:27:14 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 5:11?PM Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > We can find the discussion in the list archives somewhere. Suffice to > say, ? does seem to be a real thing and seems to have been so even > before it was recognized. > No one here questions whether it's the real thing. My question is whether it is in customary use, with higher frequency than SS, in all-caps text where there is nothing holding the authors/publishers/producers/advertisers back from using it. What I have been able to find so far points to some use, but less use than SS or ?. I am looking forward to convincing evidence of the opposite. markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 19:32:51 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 17:32:51 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> Message-ID: On 12/2/2024 5:07 PM, Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote: > I remember when the debate about adding ? was ongoing here on this > list. There were lots of old fonts shown which had a distinct > uppercase ?.? I remember that some insisted there was no such letter, > pointing to the pronouncements of the then-current Gro?e Duden, which > said that ? capitalizes to SS, and yet the cover of *that very book*, > in all-capital letters an inch high, clearly showed its title as DER > GRO?E DUDEN. > > We can find the discussion in the list archives somewhere. Suffice to > say, ? does seem to be a real thing and seems to have been so even > before it was recognized. > > ~mark > Some of us remember those discussions. And the evidence introduced at the time. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 19:36:50 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 17:36:50 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241202224020.836X6bjE@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <20241202224020.836X6bjE@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <1b417689-9f9f-47d6-b5bf-69802326b884@ix.netcom.com> On 12/2/2024 2:40 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: > There are also umlauts > where for example the dots of the U are "inside it", or mostly > look only like a line inside it. But i only know that for U.) There are also fonts that have an "e" overlaid on some white space inside the capital letter. I remember seeing that in a Fraktur font long ago, well before I even knew what a typeface was. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 19:44:56 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 17:44:56 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241202223715.nxhqYlcp@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> <20241202223715.nxhqYlcp@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <2cf97bde-3925-4893-833a-70bb6620837d@ix.netcom.com> On 12/2/2024 2:37 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: > i want to point to that photo of > Frankfurt/Main, where it is uppercase STRASSE In the labeling of the photo which likely was created on a typewriter (note monospaced font). I thought at first you had found an actual street sign. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 2 19:51:12 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 17:51:12 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <97671c8e-bed3-4fb4-9e9b-fdf5558b7666@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <97671c8e-bed3-4fb4-9e9b-fdf5558b7666@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <9d136eb0-aac2-4c14-830b-07104140897d@ix.netcom.com> (stuck in my outbox for a bit) On 11/27/2024 5:12 AM, Daniel Buncic via Unicode wrote: > Am 27.11.2024 um 13:25 schrieb Otto Stolz via Unicode: >> So, the wording of the sentence has been reversed, but the example >> is given in the same order as in the previous version. > > I will stop discussing the interpretation of this sentence now, but > this is interesting: In the pdf version on the website of the > orthography council > (https://www.rechtschreibrat.com/DOX/RfdR_Amtliches-Regelwerk_2024.pdf, > p.?48) it is ?STRA?E ? STRASSE?.? On the website of the IDS (Institute > for the German language), which is supposed to have just an HTML > version of the same text, it is ?STRASSE ? STRA?E?. Obviously some > kind of copy-paste error. > > Best wishes, > > Daniel Stepping back, it is clear that there has been? a lengthy transition here. Up to some point in the past, the use of capital sharp S was limited to environments which had an extended typeface support and some control over selecting glyphs whether manually or with some mechanism other than invoked by a character code. That is trivially true, because at some point, no character encoding existed for the capital form (nor was it part of manual keyboards). Nevertheless, it was used to some degree, as has been documented, even though it wasn't feasible to suggest or mandate its use in standard or default capitalization. Later, the character was encoded and became supported in fonts and keyboards. Initially, the reaction of the rule makers was to allow it as an alternative to SS. Since then, the support has become more widespread. It now appears that this is leading to a shift towards a stance from the "descriptive" rule makers that acknowledges the fact that the use of this character is no longer fundamentally limited. The attached image, if it comes through, shows the latest use that I happened to catch a few days ago. Rather than getting hung up on details of parsing one particular part of one sentence, it would be more useful from Unicode's perspective if someone (Daniel?) could sum up in a short document base on this discussion where Unicode is behind the curve and to make sure the support in CLDR is up to actual current practice and not what it was 10 or 15 years ago. As part of this, the clarification of the difference between stable identifier-safe casing and up-to-date text processing needs to be addressed. The problem report should explain the distinction and, if possible, list places in the text that need to be fixed, but fully worked out language isn't a requirement (I'm sure the properties groups and the editorial WG will have their own ideas on wording). However, any perceived shortcomings in existing CLDR support should be noted. A./ PS: one downside of the "SS" fallback is that it tends to interfere with the use of "ss" over "?" in indicating the length of the preceding vowel. This is a consequence of the reform taken 30 years ago, which has been in use long enough to introduce the expectation for many readers that "SS" follows a short vowel, something that makes the use of capital sharp s more natural. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20241123_105952-c1_800.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 50846 bytes Desc: not available URL: From daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de Tue Dec 3 02:01:54 2024 From: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de (Daniel Buncic) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:01:54 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <9d136eb0-aac2-4c14-830b-07104140897d@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <97671c8e-bed3-4fb4-9e9b-fdf5558b7666@uni-koeln.de> <9d136eb0-aac2-4c14-830b-07104140897d@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Am 03.12.2024 um 02:51 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > Rather than getting hung up on details of parsing one particular > part of one sentence, it would be more useful from Unicode's > perspective if someone (Daniel?) could sum up in a short document > base on this discussion where Unicode is behind the curve and to > make sure the support in CLDR is up to actual current practice and > not what it was 10 or 15 years ago. Thank you very much for the idea. I could certainly sum up the arguments of the discussion (though I?m too busy to do it right now, you would have to have a few weeks? patience), but I still haven?t understood where in the CLDR such casing information is stored. There are data subsets that have ?casing? in the title, but they only say whether the days of the week, month names, language names, etc. are capitalized in a certain language. There is a field called ?main examplars? that contains all the small letters (for German, including ?) and another field called ?index examplars?, which for German does not even include ?, ?, and ?. I surmise that this is only meant for numbering items using letters (where indeed you can have parts A, B, C, etc. of a book, but you would never have a ?part ??). I cannot find any information saying something like a???A, b???B, etc. For Turkish (https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/46/summary/tr.html), the ?main letters? in the very first line are given as [a b c ? d e f g ? h ? i? j k l m n o ? p r s ? t u ? v y z]. So there i and its capital counterpart ? are not separated by a space. But for German (https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/46/summary/de.html), the ?main letters? are [a? b c d e f g h i j k l m n o? p q r s ? t u? v w x y z], where the missing space does not imply capitalization, so I guess changing this list to ???s????t??? would not automatically inform people that ? should be capitalized as ?. In https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode16.0.0/UnicodeStandard-16.0.pdf on page 198 I find: ?Examples of case tailorings which are not covered by data in SpecialCasing.txt include: [?] Uppercasing of U+00DF ??? LATIN SMALL LETTER SHARP S to U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S[.] The preferred mechanism for defining tailored casing operations is the Unicode Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR), https://cldr.unicode.org, where tailorings such as these can be specified on a per-language basis, as needed.? So the idea is already there. On page 295 the problem with ? is addressed in detail, and right underneath it says, ?Additional language-specific or orthography-specific contexts and casing behavior is specified in the Unicode Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR), https://cldr.unicode.org.? So does this already exist? Or where does it have to be added? Can anybody help? Best wishes, Daniel -- Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? =============================================================== Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K =============================================================== Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 =============================================================== From junicode at jcbradfield.org Tue Dec 3 02:22:29 2024 From: junicode at jcbradfield.org (Julian Bradfield) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 08:22:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> Message-ID: On 2024-12-03, Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote: > I remember when the debate about adding ? was ongoing here on this > list.? There were lots of old fonts shown which had a distinct uppercase > ?.? I remember that some insisted there was no such letter, pointing to > the pronouncements of the then-current Gro?e Duden, which said that ? > capitalizes to SS, and yet the cover of *that very book*, in all-capital > letters an inch high, clearly showed its title as DER GRO?E DUDEN. This intrigued me, so to save others searching, here's a photo of the 1957 edition: https://www.megaknihy.cz/nezarazeno/4155556-der-grosse-duden.html From aprilop at fn.de Tue Dec 3 03:22:11 2024 From: aprilop at fn.de (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBQcmlsb3Ag8J+HrvCfh7E=?=) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 09:22:11 +0000 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> Message-ID: <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> Julian Bradfield wrote: > https://www.megaknihy.cz/nezarazeno/4155556-der-grosse-duden.html This book is from East Germany. It was never written in this way in West Germany. From aprilop at fn.de Tue Dec 3 03:49:40 2024 From: aprilop at fn.de (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBQcmlsb3Ag8J+HrvCfh7E=?=) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 09:49:40 +0000 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> Message-ID: The East German Duden (21. Auflage, 1980) says: Regel 41 Das Schriftzeichen ? fehlt als Gro?buchstabe. Es wird ersetzt durch SS oder, falls Mi?verst?ndnisse m?glich sind, durch SZ. From aprilop at fn.de Tue Dec 3 05:34:08 2024 From: aprilop at fn.de (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBQcmlsb3Ag8J+HrvCfh7E=?=) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 11:34:08 +0000 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> Message-ID: <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > Gro?e Duden The title ?Der Gro?e Duden? is from East Germany, not West Germany. From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 3 07:21:42 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 05:21:42 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> Message-ID: <5961c14e-4f4d-48de-98b6-48610f3c3f52@ix.netcom.com> On 12/3/2024 1:22 AM, Andreas Prilop via Unicode wrote: > This book is from East Germany. > It was never written in this way in West Germany. And your point being? A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 3 07:24:21 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 05:24:21 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> Message-ID: On 12/3/2024 1:49 AM, Andreas Prilop ?? via Unicode wrote: > The East German Duden (21. Auflage, 1980) says: > > Regel 41 > Das Schriftzeichen ? fehlt als Gro?buchstabe. Es wird ersetzt durch SS > oder, falls Mi?verst?ndnisse m?glich sind, durch SZ. > The wording is interesting, because now that a capital letter has been encoded, the premise is moot. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 3 07:25:15 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 05:25:15 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> Message-ID: <4f9fd023-2b9d-43fb-a026-0145b2c5a012@ix.netcom.com> On 12/3/2024 3:34 AM, Andreas Prilop via Unicode wrote: > Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > >> Gro?e Duden > The title ?Der Gro?e Duden? is from East Germany, not West Germany. > And your point being? A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprilop at fn.de Tue Dec 3 07:59:51 2024 From: aprilop at fn.de (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBQcmlsb3Ag8J+HrvCfh7E=?=) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 13:59:51 +0000 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <5961c14e-4f4d-48de-98b6-48610f3c3f52@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> <5961c14e-4f4d-48de-98b6-48610f3c3f52@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <57FAEAD1-AB1B-49F9-8E98-F33DAC62AA69@fn.de> Asmus Freytag wrote: >> This book is from East Germany. >> It was never written in this way in West Germany. > > And your point being? Before 1990, a special sort of capital ? has sometimes been used in East Germany, but not in West Germany. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duden#13.%E2%80%9319._Auflage_%281947%E2%80%931991%29 From aprilop at fn.de Tue Dec 3 08:07:56 2024 From: aprilop at fn.de (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBQcmlsb3Ag8J+HrvCfh7E=?=) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 14:07:56 +0000 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <4f9fd023-2b9d-43fb-a026-0145b2c5a012@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> <4f9fd023-2b9d-43fb-a026-0145b2c5a012@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Asmus Freytag wrote: >> The title ?Der Gro?e Duden? is from East Germany, not West Germany. > > And your point being? Non-German readers on this list may not know that there were two different ?Dudens? with diverging guidelines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duden#East_German_Duden_%28Leipzig%29 From markus.icu at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 09:56:32 2024 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 07:56:32 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <97671c8e-bed3-4fb4-9e9b-fdf5558b7666@uni-koeln.de> <9d136eb0-aac2-4c14-830b-07104140897d@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 12:05?AM Daniel Buncic via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > Thank you very much for the idea. I could certainly sum up the > arguments of the discussion (though I?m too busy to do it right now, you > would have to have a few weeks? patience), but I still haven?t > understood where in the CLDR such casing information is stored. CLDR has "transform" data for case mappings, but practical case mapping functions, as implemented in libraries like ICU and ICU4X, are very low-level, and hardcode exceptional cases. I have implemented most of the ICU case mapping/case folding functions. Their behavior mostly follows the Unicode Standard core spec and data files -- including what SpecialCasing.txt says but handling most of that in code. Over time, we have added and refined language-specific case mappings for Dutch (IJ), Armenian (a ligature that has gotten reinterpreted), and modern Greek ("drop accents" but with exceptions on exceptions). There is a CLDR ticket for documenting all of this in the CLDR spec (UTS #35). For uppercasing ? to ? rather than SS, we have this ticket: https://unicode-org.atlassian.net/browse/CLDR-17624 I have added some information there from this thread. And that is why I am engaging in this thread and looking for evidence that ? is replacing SS (and ?) in German all-uppercase text. I am looking for a noticeable increase in relative frequency, not one-offs. Another way to approach this, also discussed in that ticket, is to add some kind of explicit option that lets one choose the uppercasing behavior of ?. Given how low-level uppercase functions are and what limited inputs they take, that is also not an easy problem. It might in some ways be easier if the new behavior had become widespread already, so that implementers could just change their code for most contexts. Viele Gr??e, markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 3 11:06:19 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:06:19 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <97671c8e-bed3-4fb4-9e9b-fdf5558b7666@uni-koeln.de> <9d136eb0-aac2-4c14-830b-07104140897d@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <060b3ae8-51ee-4626-b6e7-d71511cf3112@ix.netcom.com> On 12/3/2024 7:56 AM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote: > I am looking for a noticeable increase in relative frequency, not > one-offs. Understood. But randomly encountered one-offs used to be extremely rare. And reliably spotting a capital form takes some expertise. Assuming I've been sensitized for that since Unicode 5.1, my own random sample shows increased frequency of anecdotal encounters in recent years, not just pre/post 5.1. What we might need to sample other than publications would be? a representative subset of German typographers / designers to understand whether we are unintentionally putting roadblocks by the lack of more complete software support for capital sharp s. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 3 11:12:19 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:12:19 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <57FAEAD1-AB1B-49F9-8E98-F33DAC62AA69@fn.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <13420B29-040F-43DF-84D8-4B0334DE6FDE@fn.de> <5961c14e-4f4d-48de-98b6-48610f3c3f52@ix.netcom.com> <57FAEAD1-AB1B-49F9-8E98-F33DAC62AA69@fn.de> Message-ID: <67e97e8c-774b-4213-903f-bf902e9c32a1@ix.netcom.com> On 12/3/2024 5:59 AM, Andreas Prilop ?? via Unicode wrote: > Before 1990, a special sort of capital ? has sometimes been used > in East Germany, but not in West Germany. That applies to the title of that particular work, but IIRC we had examples from everywhere in the documentation for the proposed encoding. And modern examples, like the one I shared, are not from the former East Germany or its modern successor regions. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christoph.paeper at crissov.de Tue Dec 3 11:37:04 2024 From: christoph.paeper at crissov.de (=?utf-8?Q?Christoph_P=C3=A4per?=) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 18:37:04 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F4A2FB1-9FA0-421C-9F68-DC2C3B424F98@crissov.de> Just for the record, one popular place I?ve noticed uppercased ? a lot lately is in Apple?s Maps app where street names are always uppercased and, of course, often include ?Stra?e?. Their soft keyboard on iOS etc. also has it in the S key popup. From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 3 14:54:24 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 21:54:24 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <4f9fd023-2b9d-43fb-a026-0145b2c5a012@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> <4f9fd023-2b9d-43fb-a026-0145b2c5a012@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20241203205424.FOn-Vx3e@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote in <4f9fd023-2b9d-43fb-a026-0145b2c5a012 at ix.netcom.com>: |On 12/3/2024 3:34 AM, Andreas Prilop via Unicode wrote: |> Mark E. Shoulson wrote: |> |>> Gro?e Duden |> The title ?Der Gro?e Duden? is from East Germany, not West Germany. |> |And your point being? The good guys lost (of course). ("Everbody knows" i think, Leonhard Cohen.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 3 15:15:30 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 22:15:30 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <2cf97bde-3925-4893-833a-70bb6620837d@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <20241202200634.bHW4ZxLx@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <29eb72a3-1578-4eaf-8495-b5015a209397@uni-koeln.de> <20241202223715.nxhqYlcp@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <2cf97bde-3925-4893-833a-70bb6620837d@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20241203211530.f-fPrLvP@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote in <2cf97bde-3925-4893-833a-70bb6620837d at ix.netcom.com>: |On 12/2/2024 2:37 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: |> i want to point to that photo of |> Frankfurt/Main, where it is uppercase STRASSE | |In the labeling of the photo which likely was created on a typewriter |(note monospaced font). | |I thought at first you had found an actual street sign. No, unfortunately not. I always thought such signs where in Frakturschrift (also due to things like [1]), but it seems most "signs on the streets" (as opposed to street signs) were already Antiqua. I have a photo similar to the ones sent, from Berlin, where on the market place there is an "Unfall Station" aka "Accident Station" (aka first aid, ..likely). However here in Darmstadt at least there were, at least in the past, many "trimmed to look traditional" street signs, and these were all Fraktur. Looking around i see a collection of still remaining Frakturschrift street signs from Munich [2], but they all use normal casing and eszett (does not make sense to look thus, hm). [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur_(Schrift)#/media/Datei:Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg [2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/MuenchenKontaktabzugFrakturschriftStrassenschilder.jpg/320px-MuenchenKontaktabzugFrakturschriftStrassenschilder.jpg (Typewriter i do not know, but some kind of "print" for sure.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From mark at kli.org Tue Dec 3 15:27:10 2024 From: mark at kli.org (Mark E. Shoulson) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 16:27:10 -0500 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> Message-ID: Thanks.? I freely admit my towering ignorance regarding German orthography and the history thereof.? Like I said, what I remember is people using (what I thought was?) this book (whatever its origin) as proof that there was no ?, and yet it had it on its cover. ~mark On 12/3/24 6:34 AM, Andreas Prilop ?? via Unicode wrote: Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > Gro?e Duden The title ?Der Gro?e Duden? is from East Germany, not West Germany. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 3 15:31:37 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 22:31:37 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <060b3ae8-51ee-4626-b6e7-d71511cf3112@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <97671c8e-bed3-4fb4-9e9b-fdf5558b7666@uni-koeln.de> <9d136eb0-aac2-4c14-830b-07104140897d@ix.netcom.com> <060b3ae8-51ee-4626-b6e7-d71511cf3112@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20241203213137.bRMH1oyN@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote in <060b3ae8-51ee-4626-b6e7-d71511cf3112 at ix.netcom.com>: |On 12/3/2024 7:56 AM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote: |> I am looking for a noticeable increase in relative frequency, not |> one-offs. | |Understood. But randomly encountered one-offs used to be extremely rare. I would not take photos from some BW-locale energy company advertising for speak for Germany. The first one could not be opened here. Having said that i am out of this thread. But if it would be me i would not do anything about uppercase eszett at the moment. I do not encounter it in my visual experiences around here, at least. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 3 16:11:19 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 23:11:19 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <20241201004452.uw-Xfv54@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <6f429d01-882c-403c-a163-4ab66bda2117@uni-koeln.de> <6cfd6ee5-c29e-4daf-99bc-13bcfe7443ea@kli.org> <5235ACD3-AD26-44F3-9E50-76F9D9F018E2@fn.de> Message-ID: <20241203221119.kJbobyHf@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote in : |Thanks.? I freely admit my towering ignorance regarding German |orthography and the history thereof.? Like I said, what I remember is |people using (what I thought was?) this book (whatever its origin) as |proof that there was no ?, and yet it had it on its cover. But no, *i* find this funny! Ie in many, especially cultural aspects the DDR was more like "original" Germany, and if you look at the history of Germanist discussions, i quoted one from Wikipedia in one of the first of my too many posts, then isn't it funny to scream on the front page "but hey, have a look, *here it is*!", while at the same time being all-correct and submissive on the lengthy inside? (Despite that politicized Wikipedia shit which talks on niche details.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From dpk at nonceword.org Sat Dec 14 15:20:20 2024 From: dpk at nonceword.org (Daphne Preston-Kendal) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 22:20:20 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> Message-ID: <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> On 2 Dec 2024, at 11:19, Marius Spix via Unicode wrote: > That problem is not not new. The long ?, which is only used in old Fraktur script, but not in modern Antiqua script, has the same issue. It shares its uppercase form S with the round s, which behaves differently than the Greek final Sigma ? and can appear mid-word, for example in compound words. > > For example: to_lower(to_upper("Hau?t?r")) returns "Haust?r", which is inaccurate. ?Hau?t?r? ? assuming it is intended to be the door of a house ? is wrong in the first place. The round s is used at the end of words within compounds. The rule of thumb: for native words, if pronounced [z] or [?], use the round s; if [s], use the long s. (Non-native words were usually set by printing them in Antiqua anyway.) Daphne From daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de Sun Dec 15 05:54:36 2024 From: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de (Daniel Buncic) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 12:54:36 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> Message-ID: <69e87017-dd78-4cd4-a649-afea2a5a87e1@uni-koeln.de> >> The long ?, which is only used in old Fraktur script, but not in >> modern Antiqua script, has the same issue. Except that in Fraktur there are no all-caps words, so that the function to_upper() has no use in a Fraktur text anyway. (For example, a modern Bible printed in Antiqua might have words like GOTT ?GOD?, JESUS, der HERR ?the LORD?, etc. printed in all-caps to mark them as sacred. In old Bibles printed in Fraktur, something like ????, ????? or ??? ???? is quite unthinkable because all-caps Fraktur words are basically illegible. What you can find in old Bibles is the use of two capitals at the beginning to emphasize words, e.g. ????, ?????, ??? ????.) Best wishes, Daniel -- Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? =============================================================== Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K =============================================================== Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 =============================================================== From ecm.unicode at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 16:14:58 2024 From: ecm.unicode at gmail.com (Erik Carvalhal Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 17:14:58 -0500 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <69e87017-dd78-4cd4-a649-afea2a5a87e1@uni-koeln.de> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> <69e87017-dd78-4cd4-a649-afea2a5a87e1@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: An instance of two?tlecase. On Sunday, December 15, 2024, Daniel Buncic via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > The long ?, which is only used in old Fraktur script, but not in >>> modern Antiqua script, has the same issue. >>> >> > Except that in Fraktur there are no all-caps words, so that the function > to_upper() has no use in a Fraktur text anyway. > > (For example, a modern Bible printed in Antiqua might have words like GOTT > ?GOD?, JESUS, der HERR ?the LORD?, etc. printed in all-caps to mark them as > sacred. In old Bibles printed in Fraktur, something like ????, > ????? or ??? ???? is quite unthinkable because all-caps Fraktur > words are basically illegible. What you can find in old Bibles is the use > of two capitals at the beginning to emphasize words, e.g. ????, > ?????, ??? ????.) > > Best wishes, > > Daniel > > -- > Prof. Dr. Daniel Bun?i? > =============================================================== > Slavisches Institut der Universit?t zu K?ln > Weyertal 137, D-50931 K?ln > Telefon: +49 (0)221 470-90535 > Sprechstunden: https://uni.koeln/ENZEB > E-Mail: daniel.buncic at uni-koeln.de = daniel at buncic.de > Threema: https://threema.id/8M375R5K > =============================================================== > Homepage: http://daniel.buncic.de/ > Academia: http://uni-koeln.academia.edu/buncic > ResearchGate: https://researchgate.net/profile/Daniel-Buncic-2 > =============================================================== > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 15 16:43:15 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:43:15 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> <69e87017-dd78-4cd4-a649-afea2a5a87e1@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <95438106-ac68-44fa-b9f9-8014e5baa204@ix.netcom.com> On 12/15/2024 2:14 PM, Erik Carvalhal Miller via Unicode wrote: > all-caps Fraktur words are basically illegible Which is an interesting digression in and of itself. Especially since the Latin script had started out as ALL CAPS. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 15 16:50:07 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:50:07 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <8F4A2FB1-9FA0-421C-9F68-DC2C3B424F98@crissov.de> References: <8F4A2FB1-9FA0-421C-9F68-DC2C3B424F98@crissov.de> Message-ID: <4dc38a8b-3e52-4419-8335-a292af54bb50@ix.netcom.com> On 12/3/2024 9:37 AM, Christoph P?per via Unicode wrote: > Just for the record, one popular place I?ve noticed uppercased ? a lot lately is in Apple?s Maps app where street names are always uppercased and, of course, often include ?Stra?e?. Their soft keyboard on iOS etc. also has it in the S key popup. Which means that they, for one, don't use Unicode's "default" for their "ToUpper" function? Or do they get their uppercased names from some geographical names database? In which case we would have a large-scale use of ? Worth tracking down if anyone has contacts to that team or know about such databases. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyratelle at gmx.de Mon Dec 16 06:24:24 2024 From: lyratelle at gmx.de (Dominikus Dittes Scherkl) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 13:24:24 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <95438106-ac68-44fa-b9f9-8014e5baa204@ix.netcom.com> References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> <69e87017-dd78-4cd4-a649-afea2a5a87e1@uni-koeln.de> <95438106-ac68-44fa-b9f9-8014e5baa204@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Am 15.12.24 um 23:43 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > On 12/15/2024 2:14 PM, Erik Carvalhal Miller via Unicode wrote: >> all-caps Fraktur words are basically illegible > > Which is an interesting digression in and of itself. Especially since > the Latin script had started out as ALL CAPS. It's not a digression, it's a development. After minuscles were available, uppercase letters became something rare and special, so first chapter-initial letters were designed to be something unique and outstanding, and then those letters replaced the standard-uppercase in fraktur. But unique and outstanding things are nothing one expects to occur in a row, so the design doesn't fit that usecase. And I fully agree to this evolution, as nowadays YELLING at people is deemed impolite, not sacred. -- Dominikus Dittes Scherkl From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 16 15:19:12 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 22:19:12 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping Message-ID: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> --- Forwarded from Steffen Nurpmeso --- Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 22:18:26 +0100 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Daphne Preston-Kendal Subject: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping Message-ID: <20241216211826.Dt3h2MaC at steffen%sdaoden.eu> Daphne Preston-Kendal via Unicode wrote in <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62 at nonceword.org>: |On 2 Dec 2024, at 11:19, Marius Spix via Unicode wrote: ... |wrong in the first place.[.] The thing is the reforms of the last republican century went into the wrong direction. For example around 1900 there was "Oele sind ?lig", which today looks odd but isn't it a more aesthetic experience than having an uppercase Umlaut. Necessarily the dots above etc scratch at some upper baseline, astronomic. This is not a music sheet of Bach (or other opulent classical composer). There was Kenntniss "Knowledge" as-you-speak which was mutilated to Kenntnis but remained Kenntnisse in plural for only technical reasons. Thran became Tran, that is surely because the people started using solely the Tran of Switzerland, Ovomaltine it is, is it, and then you say "aaaah, beautiful, Tran!!", instead. Same for Werthe, which became Werte, which is only understandable if you have no value left except money, it necessarily must be Werthe in all other thinkable occasions. And then really, necessarily there is not only eszett which is no(t) (longer) sz as the name es-zett implies (wrongly referred to in Unicode, likely with malicious anti-german intention), but a dedicated character, and it is absolutely necessary to provide uppercase font mappings that bring it all to the top regarding intransparent obviousness, and with LiberationMono font i know which of ?? is, actually, uppercase. Or make it ?s. I am fine with that. It is better than todays world where so-called academic intellectual elite magazines which run their text through automatic spell checkers produce more typos and "hanging in the nowhere" sentences that police allows. Other than that this is solely a polemic private opinion for sure. -- End forward <20241216211826.Dt3h2MaC at steffen%sdaoden.eu> --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 16 15:49:39 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 13:49:39 -0800 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <9RLINS.ZGOEYIMBLB493@quoi.xyz> <44a97a80-c152-45e9-a28d-09f596ebefe2@gmx.de> <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62@nonceword.org> <69e87017-dd78-4cd4-a649-afea2a5a87e1@uni-koeln.de> <95438106-ac68-44fa-b9f9-8014e5baa204@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <55d7320c-465d-471e-a988-810b13a57231@ix.netcom.com> On 12/16/2024 4:24 AM, Dominikus Dittes Scherkl via Unicode wrote: > Am 15.12.24 um 23:43 schrieb Asmus Freytag via Unicode: >> On 12/15/2024 2:14 PM, Erik Carvalhal Miller via Unicode wrote: >>> all-caps Fraktur words are basically illegible >> >> Which is an interesting digression in and of itself. Especially since >> the Latin script had started out as ALL CAPS. > > It's not a digression, it's a development. After minuscles were > available, uppercase letters became something rare and special, so first > chapter-initial letters were designed to be something unique and > outstanding, and then those letters replaced the standard-uppercase in > fraktur. But unique and outstanding things are nothing one expects to > occur in a row, so the design doesn't fit that usecase. > And I fully agree to this evolution, as nowadays YELLING at people is > deemed impolite, not sacred. This side discussion is a digression from the main topic. A./ From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 16 16:33:57 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 14:33:57 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On 12/16/2024 1:19 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: > --- Forwarded from Steffen Nurpmeso --- > Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 22:18:26 +0100 > Author: Steffen Nurpmeso > From: Steffen Nurpmeso > To: Daphne Preston-Kendal > Subject: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping > Message-ID:<20241216211826.Dt3h2MaC at steffen%sdaoden.eu> > > Daphne Preston-Kendal via Unicode wrote in > <939AFA07-02CA-4980-B202-6374A3E99F62 at nonceword.org>: > |On 2 Dec 2024, at 11:19, Marius Spix via Unicode wrote: > ... > |wrong in the first place.[.] > > The thing is the reforms of the last republican century went into > the wrong direction. For example around 1900 there was "Oele sind > ?lig", which today looks odd but isn't it a more aesthetic > experience than having an uppercase Umlaut. Necessarily the dots > above etc scratch at some upper baseline, astronomic. This is not > a music sheet of Bach (or other opulent classical composer). > There was Kenntniss "Knowledge" as-you-speak which was mutilated > to Kenntnis but remained Kenntnisse in plural for only technical > reasons. > Thran became Tran, that is surely because the people started using > solely the Tran of Switzerland, Ovomaltine it is, is it, and then > you say "aaaah, beautiful, Tran!!", instead. Same for Werthe, > which became Werte, ... Sounds like a perfect argument based on conservatism for the sake of it. When typesetting required paper, extremely tight layouts were common to conserve resources. With very limited leading, there was little space to place diacritics on top of capitals. The solutions weren't universal, but for the umlaut it was not that rare to find a font that placed a small e *inside* the capital letter. Nowadays, the designs tend to much larger interline spacing and there's no penalty for placing an accent or umlaut on top of a capital letter. So, the rationale for using a 'e' whether next to or as part of the capital letter shape have evaporated. Instead, since the times of the discussion in 1925 cited in an earlier message, the sentiment that a 1:1 correspondence between lowercase and uppercase letter is not only normal but desirable has only increased. All languages change over time and spelling tends to shed redundant or inoperative letters, if and when they are no longer useful. That firmly applies to the old-style th or tz in German, where the 'h' or 't' were removed, respectively. These serve no particular purpose, unlike the silent 'k' in English "knight", which distinguishes the word from "night", at least in writing. > ... which is only understandable if you have no > value left except money, it necessarily must be Werthe in all > other thinkable occasions. And then really, necessarily there is > not only eszett which is no(t) (longer) sz as the name es-zett > implies (wrongly referred to in Unicode, likely with malicious > anti-german intention), but a dedicated character, and it is > absolutely necessary to provide uppercase font mappings that bring > it all to the top regarding intransparent obviousness, and with > LiberationMono font i know which of ?? is, actually, uppercase. > Or make it ?s. I am fine with that. It is better than todays > world where so-called academic intellectual elite magazines which > run their text through automatic spell checkers produce more typos > and "hanging in the nowhere" sentences that police allows. > Other than that this is solely a polemic private opinion for sure. The remainder of your post unfortunately descends into irrelevant and opinionated editorializing, so there's little constructive to add to in a reply. A./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug at ewellic.org Mon Dec 16 23:50:53 2024 From: doug at ewellic.org (Doug Ewell) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 05:50:53 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: Asmus Freytag replied to Steffen Nurpmeso: > The remainder of your post unfortunately descends into irrelevant and > opinionated editorializing, so there's little constructive to add to > in a reply. I wouldn?t have been as charitable; the following was completely uncalled for and demands an apology: >> [...] And then really, necessarily there is >> not only eszett which is no(t) (longer) sz as the name es-zett >> implies (wrongly referred to in Unicode, likely with malicious >> anti-german intention) -- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org From christoph.paeper at crissov.de Tue Dec 17 01:23:32 2024 From: christoph.paeper at crissov.de (=?utf-8?Q?Christoph_P=C3=A4per?=) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 08:23:32 +0100 Subject: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Asmus Freytag: > > All languages change over time and spelling tends to shed redundant or inoperative letters, if and when they are no longer useful. That firmly applies to the old-style th or tz in German, where the 'h' or 't' were removed, respectively. These serve no particular purpose, unlike the silent 'k' in English "knight", which distinguishes the word from "night", at least in writing. This is becoming really off-topic, but please let me clarify this widely repeated misconception. The German ?th? was indeed abolished at the turn of the 20th century from the official orthography, only to be kept in (apparent) loan words, but it actually served a regular purpose that was just a bit more complex than most rules and can be phrased as a special case for one: Within a morphemic stem, an ?h? may be used canonically to show the increased length or stress of a single-letter vowel (including umlauts) and is placed immediately thereafter, *but* if there is a ?t? in that syllable (preferably) before or after the vowel ? an ?r? or ?l? glide may arguably come in between ?, it attracts this _Dehnungs-h_ to form a ?th? (or ?Th?) digraph: _thun, that, Th?ter; rathen, Rathhaus; Thresen; Werth_. If, however, the ?h? was needed to separate the vowel from an end schwa, realized as an ?e?, the digraph is inhibited: _Truhe_, not _*Thrue_. The transcribed theta in Greek loan words is treated exactly the same, and in most cases survived the reform 30 years ago, although they were on the shortlist to be dropped. This lead(s) to hurdles in learning to spell where it?s not naively possible, e.g. the ?y? in _Rhythmus_ is short (but stressed). Many German-speaking children in grammar school still go through a phase of misspelling many long vowels with an ?h? afterwards, e.g. _*T?hr_ instead of current _T?r_ and old _Th?r_, but I believe they are less likely to do so if it?s _T?re_ in their regional dialect. It might have had been better ? because simpler, more regular ? over a century ago, to keep the ?h? but move it after the vowel consistently. That ship has sailed, though, as have others. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Dec 18 19:16:54 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 02:16:54 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20241219011654.HhN4wBTk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Doug Ewell via Unicode wrote in : |I wouldn?t have been as charitable; the following was completely uncalled \ |for and demands an apology: man errno no longer contains EED, "the experienced user knows what is wrong", as it did about 25 years ago. So it remains "es-zed". I have never used ed(1), let alone really. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From asmusf at ix.netcom.com Wed Dec 18 19:33:51 2024 From: asmusf at ix.netcom.com (Asmus Freytag) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 17:33:51 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241219011654.HhN4wBTk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <20241219011654.HhN4wBTk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <0465b1d5-8bee-4844-80a5-86295623fddc@ix.netcom.com> On 12/18/2024 5:16 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: > Doug Ewell via Unicode wrote in > ook.com>: > |I wouldn?t have been as charitable; the following was completely uncalled \ > |for and demands an apology: > > man errno no longer contains EED, "the experienced user knows what > is wrong", as it did about 25 years ago. So it remains "es-zed". > I have never used ed(1), let alone really. > This makes as much sense as your rather immature signature A./ From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Dec 18 20:19:05 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 03:19:05 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <0465b1d5-8bee-4844-80a5-86295623fddc@ix.netcom.com> References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <20241219011654.HhN4wBTk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <0465b1d5-8bee-4844-80a5-86295623fddc@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20241219021905.iTBjfSXk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote in <0465b1d5-8bee-4844-80a5-86295623fddc at ix.netcom.com>: |On 12/18/2024 5:16 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: |> Doug Ewell via Unicode wrote in |> l\ |> ook.com>: |>|I wouldn?t have been as charitable; the following was completely \ |>|uncalled \ |>|for and demands an apology: |> |> man errno no longer contains EED, "the experienced user knows what |> is wrong", as it did about 25 years ago. So it remains "es-zed". |> I have never used ed(1), let alone really. |> |This makes as much sense as your rather immature signature Ah. Robert Gernhardt, he played well the German language. Missed by many, me included. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Dec 18 20:30:58 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 03:30:58 +0100 Subject: [semi-private] Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <20241219011654.HhN4wBTk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20241219023058.G8Y1msJQ@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Doug Ewell wrote in : |You know perfectly well that my comment had nothing to do with whether \ |the name ?es-zed? or ?es-zett? is accurate, and everything to do with \ |your baseless accusation that Unicode uses that name ?likely with mali\ |cious anti-german intention.? So you are saying it has nothing to do with ed(1) even? That reminds me that the NATO was created "to keep the Russians out and the Germans down below". Whoever that me is. Off-topic for the marginalized Unicode list, anyway. "Mein Wert-her" sounds plush and delighting, by the way, i am happy that high quality productions (as few as there are) of historic matter place value in such things. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Dec 18 20:36:54 2024 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 03:36:54 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping In-Reply-To: <20241219021905.iTBjfSXk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <20241216211912.aWlSHdiF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <20241219011654.HhN4wBTk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <0465b1d5-8bee-4844-80a5-86295623fddc@ix.netcom.com> <20241219021905.iTBjfSXk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20241219023654.MUhm8GUk@steffen%sdaoden.eu> Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20241219021905.iTBjfSXk at steffen%sdaoden.eu>: |Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote in | <0465b1d5-8bee-4844-80a5-86295623fddc at ix.netcom.com>: ||On 12/18/2024 5:16 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Unicode wrote: ||> Doug Ewell via Unicode wrote in ||> t\ ||> l\ ||> ook.com>: ||>|I wouldn?t have been as charitable; the following was completely \ ||>|uncalled \ ||>|for and demands an apology: ||> ||> man errno no longer contains EED, "the experienced user knows what ||> is wrong", as it did about 25 years ago. So it remains "es-zed". ||> I have never used ed(1), let alone really. ||> ||This makes as much sense as your rather immature signature | |Ah. Robert Gernhardt, he played well the German language. |Missed by many, me included. ..and to mention that the ||And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). addition of is a contribution of a New Zealandean. Who then asked to have his name replaced, the rest remained as-is. But i like it. (I think it is a bit too anglo-saxon in style for Robert Gernhardt, but i thought he would have liked it, too. It is no German, but a New Zealandean Collar Bear, and so it seems they have something brotherly in common!!) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | |And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s). | |The banded bear |without a care, |Banged on himself for e'er and e'er | |Farewell, dear collar bear