From kovacs.h.viktor at gmail.com Thu Jun 8 08:53:49 2023 From: kovacs.h.viktor at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Kov=c3=a1cs_Viktor?=) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 15:53:49 +0200 Subject: Old Hungarian closed e and naming of Old Hungarian standard Message-ID: <93ca910c-a924-3ba9-04af-31f51ff4ff09@gmail.com> Dear members of Unicode comitte, There are a problematic symbol form 10C8A (capital) and 10CCA (small) letters ?closed E?. Critics start from the misconception that the sound of these letters is closed. Unfortunately, this interpretation has been included in the standard under the alias of the letter ?. In the Rudimenta example texts (prayers) there are words that contain the closed form of the letter e, the reading of which is perfectly clear to native Hungarian readers. I propose to add the alias "Rudimenta e with closed form" to the upper and lower case "closed e" at 10C8A and 10CCA. The shape of these letters should not be changed. If necessary, I will present a submission with pictures to prove my point. In any form, the use of the adjective "Szekler-Hungarian rovas script" is incorrect, as it was not used only in Szeklerland. It is also politically critical, as Szeklerland (or Sz?kelyland) is the easternmost part of Transylvania, Transylvania being part of Romania since 1919. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greifer at hotmail.com Tue Jun 13 21:29:22 2023 From: greifer at hotmail.com (kenneth greifer) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 02:29:22 +0000 Subject: Questions about Hebrew fonts Message-ID: Hi. I know nothing about unicode or fonts or anything about this subject or computers at all, but I just wanted to ask people a few questions about computers and Hebrew fonts. I might not even understand your answer, if you choose to answer me, but I still want to ask because this issue has bothered me for many years, and I recently decided to try to look up people to ask about it. When I use Hebrew fonts in a word processor called Wordperfect, and then I publish to PDF, it often reverses the order of the letters. For some reason, when I change the English font I use, it makes it possible for the Hebrew font to type left to right like English, so I type Hebrew words from the end of the word to the beginning. Even though it is strange, for some reason, the PDF version has the letters in the right order and does not reverse the letters. When I try to self-publish some of my work on Amazon KDP, which is Kindle, they say that Kindle ebook readers can't handle Hebrew characters. I would like to know if there exists a left to right version of fonts for languages that are written right to left like Hebrew. If there were left to right versions of these fonts, then people could have an easier time mixing Hebrew and English or other languages in books on ebook readers. Of course, they would have to type the words in reverse order, which can be confusing, but it would make life easier in other ways. I hope this question is ok for this list. I don't plan to really ask anything else, except maybe how to get fonts like this to exist if they don't currently exist. Thanks for your time. Kenneth Greifer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dov.grobgeld at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 00:50:23 2023 From: dov.grobgeld at gmail.com (Dov Grobgeld) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 08:50:23 +0300 Subject: Questions about Hebrew fonts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kenneth, The main issue here is not the fonts, but whether your text is in logical order or visual order, according to the unicode bidirectional algorithm. See: https://unicode.org/reports/tr9/ It is correct that if your output is pdf like, then there is no meaning of left-to-right, or right-to-left, (unless the user wants to highlight a section of text from your PDF file and do copy and paste). However, for a freeflow text format like the Kindle, where the user can choose the font size, the application must be able to reflow the text, and to do that correctly it must apply the Bidi algorithm on the text. I assume this is the meaning of "not being able to handle Hebrew characters", they really mean that they don't support the Bidi algorithm. I know that there are a number of EPub readers that are bidi aware, but that is probably not of much help to you. I hope this helps. Regards, On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 6:27?AM kenneth greifer via Unicode < unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote: > Hi. I know nothing about unicode or fonts or anything about this subject > or computers at all, but I just wanted to ask people a few questions about > computers and Hebrew fonts. I might not even understand your answer, if you > choose to answer me, but I still want to ask because this issue has > bothered me for many years, and I recently decided to try to look up people > to ask about it. > > When I use Hebrew fonts in a word processor called Wordperfect, and then I > publish to PDF, it often reverses the order of the letters. For some > reason, when I change the English font I use, it makes it possible for the > Hebrew font to type left to right like English, so I type Hebrew words from > the end of the word to the beginning. Even though it is strange, for some > reason, the PDF version has the letters in the right order and does not > reverse the letters. > > When I try to self-publish some of my work on Amazon KDP, which is Kindle, > they say that Kindle ebook readers can't handle Hebrew characters. I would > like to know if there exists a left to right version of fonts for languages > that are written right to left like Hebrew. If there were left to right > versions of these fonts, then people could have an easier time mixing > Hebrew and English or other languages in books on ebook readers. Of course, > they would have to type the words in reverse order, which can be confusing, > but it would make life easier in other ways. > > I hope this question is ok for this list. I don't plan to really ask > anything else, except maybe how to get fonts like this to exist if they > don't currently exist. Thanks for your time. > > Kenneth Greifer > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cate at cateee.net Wed Jun 14 01:53:32 2023 From: cate at cateee.net (Giacomo Catenazzi) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 08:53:32 +0200 Subject: Questions about Hebrew fonts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3720254f-b107-1344-7829-89ffe44897c3@cateee.net> On 14 Jun 2023 04:29, kenneth greifer via Unicode wrote: > > When I try to self-publish some of my work on Amazon KDP, which is > Kindle, they say that Kindle ebook readers can't handle Hebrew > characters. I would like to know if there exists a left to right version > of fonts for languages that are written right to left like Hebrew. If > there were left to right versions of these fonts, then people could have > an easier time mixing Hebrew and English or other languages in books on > ebook readers. Of course, they would have to type the words in reverse > order, which can be confusing, but it would make life easier in other ways. You are proposing just hacks, which were good in 1970 (limited resources), but not now (nor a decade ago). Hebrew is written right to left, but it doesn't matter. We write text from beginning to the end, from first letter to the last. Unicode uses such convention, and it is good to keep it so. Your proposal is just an hack and it doesn't solve really the problem. The problem must be solved on the rendering side (display), and it is almost solved. So I expect your tools are not designed for such languages. I'm sure ebooks exists also in Hebrew (and they mix text with different conventions, think about numbers), so it is not a problem of technology. PDF can handle most of languages. So fix your tools! I think your tools are made just for Latin scripts (and maybe just for English), so to solve just the author's problem. I expect your tool cannot understand scripts (and so using e.g. Unicode algorithms to find the direction of the script, and to instruct it on PDF code). Think about your hack. Now many ebook readers can read text (read as "speaking aloud the text"), so they must know the order of characters (which it is independent to the order of display). In your case, programmers should add an hack for that (and all complexities on search functions, googling, etc.). Is it better to fix the tools to inject code to tell direction of text? It is really a problem of your tools, not of PDF (or HTML) or most technologies made to render text. ciao cate From ishida at w3.org Wed Jun 14 04:39:08 2023 From: ishida at w3.org (r12a) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 10:39:08 +0100 Subject: Questions about Hebrew fonts In-Reply-To: <3720254f-b107-1344-7829-89ffe44897c3@cateee.net> References: <3720254f-b107-1344-7829-89ffe44897c3@cateee.net> Message-ID: <996e455b-6b34-b177-6bea-25049de31d8e@w3.org> Perhaps this may help: - An Introduction to Writing Systems & Unicode>Text direction https://r12a.github.io/scripts/tutorial/part4 - Hebrew orthography notes?? https://r12a.github.io/scripts/hebr/he.html? (esp. the section on Text direction) - Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm basics https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics ri Giacomo Catenazzi via Unicode wrote on 14/06/2023 07:53: > On 14 Jun 2023 04:29, kenneth greifer via Unicode wrote: >> >> When I try to self-publish some of my work on Amazon KDP, which is >> Kindle, they say that Kindle ebook readers can't handle Hebrew >> characters. I would like to know if there exists a left to right >> version of fonts for languages that are written right to left like >> Hebrew. If there were left to right versions of these fonts, then >> people could have an easier time mixing Hebrew and English or other >> languages in books on ebook readers. Of course, they would have to >> type the words in reverse order, which can be confusing, but it would >> make life easier in other ways. > > You are proposing just hacks, which were good in 1970 (limited > resources), but not now (nor a decade ago). Hebrew is written right to > left, but it doesn't matter. We write text from beginning to the end, > from first letter to the last. Unicode uses such convention, and it is > good to keep it so. Your proposal is just an hack and it doesn't solve > really the problem. The problem must be solved on the rendering side > (display), and it is almost solved. > > So I expect your tools are not designed for such languages. I'm sure > ebooks exists also in Hebrew (and they mix text with different > conventions, think about numbers), so it is not a problem of > technology. PDF can handle most of languages. So fix your tools! I > think your tools are made just for Latin scripts (and maybe just for > English), so to solve just the author's problem. I expect your tool > cannot understand scripts (and so using e.g. Unicode algorithms to > find the direction of the script, and to instruct it on PDF code). > > Think about your hack. Now many ebook readers can read text (read as > "speaking aloud the text"), so they must know the order of characters > (which it is independent to the order of display). In your case, > programmers should add an hack for that (and all complexities on > search functions, googling, etc.). Is it better to fix the tools to > inject code to tell direction of text? > > It is really a problem of your tools, not of PDF (or HTML) or most > technologies made to render text. > > ciao > ????cate > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at bluesky.org Wed Jun 14 05:44:55 2023 From: tom at bluesky.org (Tom Gewecke) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 06:44:55 -0400 Subject: Questions about Hebrew fonts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 13, 2023, at 10:29 PM, kenneth greifer via Unicode wrote: > > > > When I try to self-publish some of my work on Amazon KDP, which is Kindle, they say that Kindle ebook readers can't handle Hebrew characters. KDP for some reason also does not accept ebooks in Latin, Polish, and Ukrainian, while for Arabic it will only accept ebooks (not paperback or hardback). Seems a bit strange. You might try Apple books. Their docs say they do not fully support Hebrew ebooks, but I think that may refer to RTL pagination. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markus.icu at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 15:45:25 2023 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:45:25 -0700 Subject: online Unicode Utilities updated to 15.1 beta Message-ID: Dear Unicoders, We have updated the online Unicode Utilities to optionally use properties & data from Unicode 15.1 beta . Append a "?" to the property name for the new values. (Otherwise you will still see 15.0 results.) For example: - [:IDS_Unary_Operator?:] - compare [:XID_Continue:] vs. [:XID_Continue?:] - Note: This one seems to have a display bug: 15.1 XIDC includes both \u200C and \u200D but the set pattern does not escape the \u200D to make it visible. - See also [[:XID_Continue?:]-[:XID_Continue:]] - [:Block?=CJK_Unified_Ideographs_Extension_I:] Best regards, markus on behalf of your properties & algorithms group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: