From richard.wordingham at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun 12 06:28:31 2022
From: richard.wordingham at ntlworld.com (Richard Wordingham)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 12:28:31 +0100
Subject: Tamil Brahmi Compliance for Unicode Versions 13.0 and 14.0
Message-ID: <20220612122831.578705be@JRWUBU2>

I'm asking so as to get my facts straight; this is not intended as a
complaint about as the standard.  The issues are probably inherent in
disunification.

Can a rendering system support Tamil Brahmi without being told whether
the text it is rendering is in Unicode 13.0 or 14.0?  I think the answer
is 'no', for the following reasons:

(a) In Unicode 14.0, rendering U+11034 BRAHMI LETTER LLA and
U+11075 BRAHMI LETTER OLD TAMIL LLA the same would be a violation of
character identity.  For example, Noto Sans Brahmi renders U+11034 with
a Tamil Brahmi-style glyph, which is compliant with Unicode 13.0, but
is a violation of character identity for Unicode 14.0.

(b) Likewise with U+11046 BRAHMI VIRAMA and U+11070 BRAHMI SIGN OLD
TAMIL VIRAMA, though less clearly.  Rendering the former as a pulli is
compliant with Unicode 13.0, but not with Unicode 14.0.

(c) Interpreting the four Unicode 13.0 vowel sequences
<LETTER/VOWEL_SIGN E/O, U+11046 BRAHMI VIRAMA> as calling for a
pulli-like element in the rendering does not appear to respect the
Unicode 14.0 character identity of U+11046.   HarfBuzz at least no
longer has a problem with vowel + virama/stacker sequences, which are
irremovable elements of the Sinhala script (two canonical
decompositions) and early documented features of the Khmer and Tai Tham
scripts, though only in the first is it part of the vowel symbol.
These combinations could have grandfathered (compare Malayalam chillus),
but haven't been.

I think this is a case where having a non-compliant rendering
system would be the right thing to do.  Fortunately for me, the data in
Tamil Brahmi that I am concerned with is mostly tagged as being in
Old Tamil.

Have I got all this right?

Richard.

From nico.schloemer at gmail.com  Tue Jun 14 14:56:36 2022
From: nico.schloemer at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Nico_Schl=C3=B6mer?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 21:56:36 +0200
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't combine to
 I ACUTE
Message-ID: <CAK6Z60e6nhP649ia8uPce37Tiw5MVdvcGGeRYYzTFdwkwuWuqg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

I was wondering about Unicode normalization with the dotless i/j characters.

In Python (and all other implementations I've checked), i + COMBINING
ACUTE ACCENT combine to LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE
```
from unicodedata import normalize
normalize("NFC", "i\N{COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT}").encode("ascii", "namereplace")
```
```
b'\\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE}'
```
When doing the same with a dotless i, it does _not_ combine:
```
from unicodedata import normalize
normalize("NFC", "\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS I}\N{COMBINING ACUTE
ACCENT}").encode("ascii", "namereplace")
```
```
b'\\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS I}\\N{COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT}'
```
Is this consistent with the standard, and oversight in the standard,
or intended?

Perhaps someone here can shed some light on it. See also this
stackoverflow request [1] and this Python bug report [2].

Cheers,
Nico

[1] https://stackoverflow.com/q/72608183/353337
[2] https://github.com/python/cpython/issues/93767

From richard.wordingham at ntlworld.com  Tue Jun 14 16:39:22 2022
From: richard.wordingham at ntlworld.com (Richard Wordingham)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:39:22 +0100
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't
 combine to I ACUTE
In-Reply-To: <CAK6Z60e6nhP649ia8uPce37Tiw5MVdvcGGeRYYzTFdwkwuWuqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK6Z60e6nhP649ia8uPce37Tiw5MVdvcGGeRYYzTFdwkwuWuqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220614223922.6d95599f@JRWUBU2>

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 21:56:36 +0200
Nico Schl?mer via Unicode <unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was wondering about Unicode normalization with the dotless i/j
> characters.
> 
> In Python (and all other implementations I've checked), i + COMBINING
> ACUTE ACCENT combine to LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE
> ```
> from unicodedata import normalize
> normalize("NFC", "i\N{COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT}").encode("ascii",
> "namereplace") ```
> ```
> b'\\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE}'
> ```
> When doing the same with a dotless i, it does _not_ combine:
> ```
> from unicodedata import normalize
> normalize("NFC", "\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS I}\N{COMBINING ACUTE
> ACCENT}").encode("ascii", "namereplace")
> ```
> ```
> b'\\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS I}\\N{COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT}'

> Is this consistent with the standard, and oversight in the standard,
> or intended?

As intended.  The two sequences should render differently in a
Lithuanian locale.

Richard.


From doug at ewellic.org  Tue Jun 14 16:59:20 2022
From: doug at ewellic.org (Doug Ewell)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 21:59:20 +0000
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't combine
 to I ACUTE
In-Reply-To: <20220614223922.6d95599f@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAK6Z60e6nhP649ia8uPce37Tiw5MVdvcGGeRYYzTFdwkwuWuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20220614223922.6d95599f@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <SJ0PR03MB6598D17A1E308420A87CC60FCAAA9@SJ0PR03MB6598.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Richard Wordingham replied to Nico Schl?mer:

>> Is this consistent with the standard, and oversight in the standard,
>> or intended?
>
> As intended.  The two sequences should render differently in a
> Lithuanian locale.

Not only that, but in general there is no guarantee that a given sequence involving a combining character will necessarily have a normalization to a precomposed character, even if there is one which "looks right." The folks on Stack Overflow have it right.

This is not a "bug," an "oversight," or any sort of failure on the part of the Standard.

--
Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org



From cloos at jhcloos.com  Tue Jun 14 17:57:57 2022
From: cloos at jhcloos.com (James Cloos)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 18:57:57 -0400
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't
 combine to I ACUTE
In-Reply-To: <CAK6Z60e6nhP649ia8uPce37Tiw5MVdvcGGeRYYzTFdwkwuWuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 ("Nico =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schl=F6mer?= via Unicode"'s message of "Tue, 14 Jun
 2022 21:56:36 +0200")
References: <CAK6Z60e6nhP649ia8uPce37Tiw5MVdvcGGeRYYzTFdwkwuWuqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3h74mvone.fsf@carbon.jhcloos.org>

For comparicon, gnu emacs shows ?? as the two separate characters (ie
side-by-side) when using mono width fonts like dejavu sans mono or go
mono, but combines them when using a variable width font like noto serif.

My main browser (also using hb+cairo) also combines them (using dejavu serif).

Your software might do something similar.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos at jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6

From nico.schloemer at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 04:12:08 2022
From: nico.schloemer at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Nico_Schl=C3=B6mer?=)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 11:12:08 +0200
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't combine to
 I ACUTE
Message-ID: <CAK6Z60dNWA384D_8o21747M+mT2upOZs3OdYr1z=TuUNqDHahQ@mail.gmail.com>

> As intended.  The two sequences should render differently in a
> Lithuanian locale.

Interesting! Is it true then that the result of

i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT

which is LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE actually represents a latin
small letter i with dot _and_ acute accent? I had always assumed that
it should be dotless.

Cheers,
Nico

From aprilop at fn.de  Wed Jun 15 05:28:13 2022
From: aprilop at fn.de (Andreas Prilop)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:28:13 +0000
Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re=3A_normalization=3A_dotless_i_+_COMBINING?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?_ACUTE_ACCENT_doesn=27t_combine_to_I_ACUTE?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK6Z60dNWA384D_8o21747M+mT2upOZs3OdYr1z=TuUNqDHahQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK6Z60dNWA384D_8o21747M+mT2upOZs3OdYr1z=TuUNqDHahQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <694512FE-C405-432E-873C-3FC7A0874E08@fn.de>

On 15 June 2022, Nico Schl?mer wrote:

> Is it true then that the result of i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT
> which is LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE actually represents a latin
> small letter i with dot _and_ acute accent?

No.

>I had always assumed that it should be dotless.

U+0626 likewise has no dots, although U+064A does have two dots below.


From moyogo at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 05:44:14 2022
From: moyogo at gmail.com (Denis Jacquerye)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 12:44:14 +0200
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't combine
 to I ACUTE
In-Reply-To: <694512FE-C405-432E-873C-3FC7A0874E08@fn.de>
References: <CAK6Z60dNWA384D_8o21747M+mT2upOZs3OdYr1z=TuUNqDHahQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <694512FE-C405-432E-873C-3FC7A0874E08@fn.de>
Message-ID: <CAJKta0wqw_Tmk4FT+0R79X9SUd2ARtjmqPu-DOAOVV00jzGTYg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode14.0.0/ch07.pdf#page=6 explicitly
recommends using i + overdot + accent for the forms used in the Baltic.
Using the Lithuanian locale may or may not work depending on the font, the
software or the language tagging, while that character sequence may or may
not work depending on the font or the software which is better odds.


On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 12:31, Andreas Prilop via Unicode <
unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote:

> On 15 June 2022, Nico Schl?mer wrote:
>
> > Is it true then that the result of i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT
> > which is LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE actually represents a latin
> > small letter i with dot _and_ acute accent?
>
> No.
>
> >I had always assumed that it should be dotless.
>
> U+0626 likewise has no dots, although U+064A does have two dots below.
>
>

-- 
Denis Moyogo Jacquerye
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From nico.schloemer at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 05:53:09 2022
From: nico.schloemer at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Nico_Schl=C3=B6mer?=)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 12:53:09 +0200
Subject: normalization: dotless i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT doesn't combine
 to I ACUTE
In-Reply-To: <CAJKta0wqw_Tmk4FT+0R79X9SUd2ARtjmqPu-DOAOVV00jzGTYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK6Z60dNWA384D_8o21747M+mT2upOZs3OdYr1z=TuUNqDHahQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <694512FE-C405-432E-873C-3FC7A0874E08@fn.de>
 <CAJKta0wqw_Tmk4FT+0R79X9SUd2ARtjmqPu-DOAOVV00jzGTYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6Z60ecr_2ivGBXF=Gz0_F+NiU3Zmn3=n+FX6S_jS6h7Rhx7g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Denis for the reply.

Indeed, your citation says

>  nor are other cases of accented dotted-i equivalent to accented dotless-i (for example, i + ? ? ? + ?)

This is what I was looking for.

Cheers,
Nico

On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 12:47 PM Denis Jacquerye via Unicode
<unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote:
>
> https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode14.0.0/ch07.pdf#page=6 explicitly recommends using i + overdot + accent for the forms used in the Baltic.
> Using the Lithuanian locale may or may not work depending on the font, the software or the language tagging, while that character sequence may or may not work depending on the font or the software which is better odds.
>
>
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 12:31, Andreas Prilop via Unicode <unicode at corp.unicode.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 June 2022, Nico Schl?mer wrote:
>>
>> > Is it true then that the result of i + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT
>> > which is LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE actually represents a latin
>> > small letter i with dot _and_ acute accent?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> >I had always assumed that it should be dotless.
>>
>> U+0626 likewise has no dots, although U+064A does have two dots below.
>>
>
>
> --
> Denis Moyogo Jacquerye


From A.Schappo at lboro.ac.uk  Tue Jun 21 07:34:03 2022
From: A.Schappo at lboro.ac.uk (Andre Schappo)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:34:03 +0000
Subject: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education
Message-ID: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>


This morning I discovered this new project: "Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education" (DITE)

So, I consider that Teachers should be taught the basics of Unicode and Unicode programming so that they can teach students how to build software for the world and for cultures other than their own culture.

As we all know, Unicode is an essential core technology for software i18n & L10n. So, I consider this project an opportunity to get Unicode on the school Computer Science & IT curricula.

So, if you would like to pitch for Unicode being taught to teachers, the DITE twitter is https://twitter.com/dite_project

I have started a twitter thread response to DITE at https://twitter.com/andreschappo/status/1539207010511736832

Andr? Schappo



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From wjgo_10009 at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 21 15:44:37 2022
From: wjgo_10009 at btinternet.com (William_J_G Overington)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 21:44:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education
In-Reply-To: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <70385f3e.1bbe5.18188028e85.Webtop.84@btinternet.com>


Many years ago I devised a scenario to encourage people to learn how to 
enter words with accented characters in them even if they did not know 
the language. I called it The Caf? ?pfel and the idea was that text from 
ingredients lists from multilingual food packaging could be keyed. The 
Caf? ?pfel would have menus in English, French, German and the language 
of the musicians and singers who were performing in the caf? that 
evening. I had this idea of a television show series with each episode 
combining cookery, computing and music with actors playing the 
continuing characters and guest musicians and singers arriving as guest 
stars.


Well, a Portuguese band and singer would be fairly straightforward.


Once the musicians come from further afield the computing got rather 
more complicated!

William Overington

Tuesday 21 June 2022


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From marius.spix at web.de  Wed Jun 22 01:07:18 2022
From: marius.spix at web.de (Marius Spix)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:07:18 +0200
Subject: Aw: Re: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education
In-Reply-To: <70385f3e.1bbe5.18188028e85.Webtop.84@btinternet.com>
References: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <70385f3e.1bbe5.18188028e85.Webtop.84@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-b793c949-2022-4205-a290-c11f08dcfed2-1655878038810@3c-app-webde-bap50>

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From A.Schappo at lboro.ac.uk  Thu Jun 23 03:15:15 2022
From: A.Schappo at lboro.ac.uk (Andre Schappo)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:15:15 +0000
Subject: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB35176482D35D1B839E38438BDFB29@SY4P282MB3517.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <SY4P282MB35176482D35D1B839E38438BDFB29@SY4P282MB3517.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <AS8PR04MB8866BDD8371F79875CF77EC7A3B59@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Peter

their website https://dite.usz.edu.pl/
their facebook https://www.facebook.com/DITEproject
their email dite at usz.edu.pl
their linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/dite-project-b90ab1241/

It is not my project but I will certainly be encouraging them to encompass Unicode and other aspects of software i18n and L10n in their teacher education.

Andr? Schappo
________________________________
From: CAVALLARO, Peter (pcava4) <pcava4 at eq.edu.au>
Sent: 23 June 2022 01:35
To: unicode at unicode.org <unicode at corp.unicode.org>; Andre Schappo <A.Schappo at lboro.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education


** THIS MESSAGE ORIGINATED OUTSIDE LOUGHBOROUGH UNIVERSITY **

** Be wary of links or attachments, especially if the email is unsolicited or you don't recognise the sender's email address. **

Hi Andr?, I am a technology teacher that reads this list and am fascinated and in awe of what Unicode does, the problem it solves and how it solves it, so it is with great delight I read about your project.

I do not have a twitter account and choose not to open one. Is there another avenue to access information about the project.

Regards


[cid:image002.png at 01D1805E.3280D480]

Peter Cavallaro

HOD Science/Agriculture/Engineering

Nanango State High School

54 Elk Street, Nanango  QLD  4615

Phone: (07) 4171 6444

Fax: (07) 4171 6400

Email: pcava4 at e<mailto:lster5 at eq.edu.au>q.edu.au


________________________________
From: Unicode <unicode-bounces at corp.unicode.org> on behalf of Andre Schappo via Unicode <unicode at corp.unicode.org>
Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2022 10:34 PM
To: unicode at unicode.org <unicode at corp.unicode.org>
Subject: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education


This morning I discovered this new project: "Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education" (DITE)

So, I consider that Teachers should be taught the basics of Unicode and Unicode programming so that they can teach students how to build software for the world and for cultures other than their own culture.

As we all know, Unicode is an essential core technology for software i18n & L10n. So, I consider this project an opportunity to get Unicode on the school Computer Science & IT curricula.

So, if you would like to pitch for Unicode being taught to teachers, the DITE twitter is https://twitter.com/dite_project

I have started a twitter thread response to DITE at https://twitter.com/andreschappo/status/1539207010511736832

Andr? Schappo




***************************************************************************************************

IMPORTANT: This email and any attachments may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information, and may be protected by copyright. You may only use or disclose this information if you are the intended recipient(s) and if you use it in an authorised way. No other person is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email and any attachments without appropriate authorisation.

If you are not the intended recipient(s) and the email was sent to you by mistake, please notify the sender immediately by return email or phone, destroy any hardcopies of this email and any attachments and delete it from your system. Any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake.

The Department of Education carries out monitoring, scanning and blocking of emails and attachments sent from or to addresses within the Department of Education for the purposes of operating, protecting, maintaining and ensuring appropriate use of its computer network. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system).

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From pcava4 at eq.edu.au  Wed Jun 22 19:35:44 2022
From: pcava4 at eq.edu.au (CAVALLARO, Peter (pcava4))
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:35:44 +0000
Subject: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education
In-Reply-To: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AS8PR04MB88661E099615C5BA1CBE1DCDA3B39@AS8PR04MB8866.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB35176482D35D1B839E38438BDFB29@SY4P282MB3517.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Andr?, I am a technology teacher that reads this list and am fascinated and in awe of what Unicode does, the problem it solves and how it solves it, so it is with great delight I read about your project.

I do not have a twitter account and choose not to open one. Is there another avenue to access information about the project.

Regards


[cid:image002.png at 01D1805E.3280D480]

Peter Cavallaro

HOD Science/Agriculture/Engineering

Nanango State High School

54 Elk Street, Nanango  QLD  4615

Phone: (07) 4171 6444

Fax: (07) 4171 6400

Email: pcava4 at e<mailto:lster5 at eq.edu.au>q.edu.au


________________________________
From: Unicode <unicode-bounces at corp.unicode.org> on behalf of Andre Schappo via Unicode <unicode at corp.unicode.org>
Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2022 10:34 PM
To: unicode at unicode.org <unicode at corp.unicode.org>
Subject: Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education


This morning I discovered this new project: "Diverse Internationalisation of Teacher Education" (DITE)

So, I consider that Teachers should be taught the basics of Unicode and Unicode programming so that they can teach students how to build software for the world and for cultures other than their own culture.

As we all know, Unicode is an essential core technology for software i18n & L10n. So, I consider this project an opportunity to get Unicode on the school Computer Science & IT curricula.

So, if you would like to pitch for Unicode being taught to teachers, the DITE twitter is https://twitter.com/dite_project

I have started a twitter thread response to DITE at https://twitter.com/andreschappo/status/1539207010511736832

Andr? Schappo




***************************************************************************************************

IMPORTANT: This email and any attachments may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information, and may be protected by copyright. You may only use or disclose this information if you are the intended recipient(s) and if you use it in an authorised way. No other person is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email and any attachments without appropriate authorisation.

If you are not the intended recipient(s) and the email was sent to you by mistake, please notify the sender immediately by return email or phone, destroy any hardcopies of this email and any attachments and delete it from your system. Any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake.

The Department of Education carries out monitoring, scanning and blocking of emails and attachments sent from or to addresses within the Department of Education for the purposes of operating, protecting, maintaining and ensuring appropriate use of its computer network. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system).

The Department of Education does not accept any responsibility for any loss or damage that may result from reliance on, or the use of, any information contained in the email and any attachments.

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