Contrastive use of kratka and breve

[Leo Broukhis]

> The alternative would be to encode a separate CYRILLIC COMBINING "LUNAR"
BREVE for the case of the initial /j/, or to encode that letter /j/
specifically.

This is in effect what they are proposing on the wiki discussion page.

A correction: the lunar breve is for the short /i/ sound, and the rounded
bowl breve ('kraTka', cognate with 'shorT') is for the /j/ sound.

You're right, it seems that the distinction can be made contextually. The
lunar breve variant seems to appear only after ”, which is a letter, see
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA#.D0.A2.D0.B0.D0.B1.D0.BB.D0.B8.D1.86.D0.B0_.D1.81.D0.BE.D0.BE.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.B8.D1.8F_.D0.B0.D0.BB.D1.84.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.B8.D1.82.D0.BE.D0.B2
 for the Nenets alphabet. It doesn't make a distinction between breves; but
now it seems that we have two new characters to encode!

Thanks,
Leo


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> The alternative would be to encode a separate CYRILLIC COMBINING "LUNAR"
> BREVE for the case of the initial /j/, or to encode that letter /j/
> specifically.
>
> However in your examples, that letter /j/ only occurs in the word initial
> position where phonology transforms the long /i/ into /j/. Contextually you
> can still make the difference even if the glyphs are not contrasted.
>
> But may be you have examples showing that letter /j/ in a non-initial
> position (at start of a syllable, i.e. after a vowel) or at end of words
> (also after a vowel) where such contextual guess is not easy to decide
> between /j/ and long /i/.
>
> It would be interesting to have details where krafka is expected and where
> a breve is expected, and where they can be confusing. If you cannot find
> such example then a simple rendering rule would be to use the lunar form of
> the breve in syllable start position (over и at start of a word, or over
> и after another vowel), and the krafka form (with both arms terminated by
> a rounded bowl) in all other positions (over и in the middle of a
> syllable after a consonnant... or also over и at end of word unles you
> also need the distinction there between a final long /i/ and a final /j/?),
>
>
>
> 2014-07-02 19:34 GMT+02:00 Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>:
>
> ZWNJ is not supposed to join or disjoin combing diacritics from a base
>> letter (even if it has such limited use in Indic scripts, but only between
>> letters to prevent clusters with subjoined letters),
>>
>> CGJ would be better used to prevent canonical compositions but it won't
>> normally give a distinctive semantic.
>>
>> It looks like you have a case where you would need to encode a variant of
>> the base letter и (with a variant selector). The rendering may be still
>> fuzzy as there's no such variant registered for that CYRILIC LETTER I.
>>
>> Probably, given that you have fonts making a specific contrast for и +
>> U+306, adding a CGJ in the middle would do the trick if it is only to
>> prevent the canonically equivalent composition which could occur in many
>> places.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-07-02 18:11 GMT+02:00 Leo Broukhis <leob at mailcom.com>:
>>
>>> Here
>>>
>>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Contrastive_use_of_kratka_and_breve.JPG
>>> is an example of й and и + U+0306 COMBINING BREVE used contrastively
>>> (/j/ vs short /i/) thanks to a difference in typographic style of Cyrillic
>>> breve (kratka) and regular breve.
>>> For me in Win7 using и + U+0306 results in a contrast, but given that и
>>> + U+0306 is a canonical decomposition of й and a renderer is allowed, if
>>> not encouraged, to use the glyph for й every time it sees и + U+0306, what
>>> is the right (portable) way to do that? Would и + ZWNJ + U+0306 work?
>>> Should it?
>>>
>>> I'd like to reply to
>>> https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82:%D0%92%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%B2_%D0%AE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B4#.D0.9E_.D0.BA.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.82.D0.BA.D0.B5_.D0.B8_.D0.B1.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.B2.D0.B8.D1.81.D0.B5
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Leo
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
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