From indic at unicode.org  Wed Dec  6 07:17:36 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (=?UTF-8?B?4KS54KSw4KS/4KSw4KS+4KSu?= via Indic)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
Message-ID: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>

While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher

When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
For Example
to replace all
'?' depended vowel AA
with
'?' depended vowel i

it does not works.

Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search and
replaced one by one with many repeats.

This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.

----
2.

When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the cursor
before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being deleted.

How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?

How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?

Would anybody guide please?



??????
????? ???? <http://hariraama.blogspot.in>
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From indic at unicode.org  Wed Dec  6 17:19:16 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:19:16 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher
> 
> When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
> For Example
> to replace all
> '?' depended vowel AA
> with
> '?' depended vowel i
> 
> it does not works.
> 
> Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search
> and replaced one by one with many repeats.
> 
> This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.
> 
> ----
> 2.
> 
> When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the
> cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being
> deleted.
> 
> How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?
> 
> How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?
> 
> Would anybody guide please?

Are you a real Indian?  UTS#29
(https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html) Section 3 Paragraph
1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.

These particular behaviours you are complaining of annoy me
intensely, but I'm a Westerner and so have no rights in these matters.

Indic layout is not particularly guilty, though it makes editing
clusters difficult.  SIL has a split cursor which attempts to address
the issue, but I've only seen it in their Worldpad text editor.
Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm unsure of the
current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster Unicode
character by character, and disables shaping across the cluster.  Even
this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know whether
one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.

Emacs does, by default, provide what I consider the civilised behaviour,
whereby pressing the delete key deletes the next character.  That makes
my life much easier, as I deal with Indic scripts in which it is not at
all unusual to have 3 or more marks attached to a single base character.

Richard.


From indic at unicode.org  Wed Dec  6 21:16:24 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Kan!skA via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:46:24 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <29d6f426-f459-b588-aa5b-d6a4aaa00c2e@cdac.in>

Strongly Agree with Richard, It's not a layout related issue.

You may use BabelPad, for your concerned issue.
http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html


Best Regards,
Kaniska PSS Nagraj
https://kanis.hk

On 07-Dec-17 4:49 AM, Richard Wordingham via Indic wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
> ?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>
>> While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher
>>
>> When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
>> For Example
>> to replace all
>> '?' depended vowel AA
>> with
>> '?' depended vowel i
>>
>> it does not works.
>>
>> Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search
>> and replaced one by one with many repeats.
>>
>> This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.
>>
>> ----
>> 2.
>>
>> When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the
>> cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being
>> deleted.
>>
>> How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?
>>
>> How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?
>>
>> Would anybody guide please?
> Are you a real Indian?  UTS#29
> (https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html) Section 3 Paragraph
> 1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.
>
> These particular behaviours you are complaining of annoy me
> intensely, but I'm a Westerner and so have no rights in these matters.
>
> Indic layout is not particularly guilty, though it makes editing
> clusters difficult.  SIL has a split cursor which attempts to address
> the issue, but I've only seen it in their Worldpad text editor.
> Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm unsure of the
> current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster Unicode
> character by character, and disables shaping across the cluster.  Even
> this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
> canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know whether
> one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.
>
> Emacs does, by default, provide what I consider the civilised behaviour,
> whereby pressing the delete key deletes the next character.  That makes
> my life much easier, as I deal with Indic scripts in which it is not at
> all unusual to have 3 or more marks attached to a single base character.
>
> Richard.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 01:26:18 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (=?UTF-8?B?4KS54KSw4KS/4KSw4KS+4KSu?= via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 12:56:18 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <29d6f426-f459-b588-aa5b-d6a4aaa00c2e@cdac.in>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <29d6f426-f459-b588-aa5b-d6a4aaa00c2e@cdac.in>
Message-ID: <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sir,

More rending problems found in
Babelpad

For example I copied following line from MS word 2007

*???? ??????*, *2017 ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ????? ??
?????? ?? ???????  *
*( ??????? ???? ??? 4 ?????? )*

and pasted it in Babelpad

But it shows wrongly as (Screenshot)


*[image: Inline image 1]*

so Babelpad is not a good Indic Editor like MS word.

If you have any Trick/tool to temporarily disable the Indic Shaping Engine
in MS word
to enable character-level editing, Kindly inform.

With regards.


??????
????? ???? <http://hariraama.blogspot.in>

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Kan!skA via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> Strongly Agree with Richard, It's not a layout related issue.
>
> You may use BabelPad, for your concerned issue.
> http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Kaniska PSS Nagraj
> https://kanis.hk
>
>
> On 07-Dec-17 4:49 AM, Richard Wordingham via Indic wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
>> ?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>>
>> While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher
>>>
>>> When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
>>> For Example
>>> to replace all
>>> '?' depended vowel AA
>>> with
>>> '?' depended vowel i
>>>
>>> it does not works.
>>>
>>> Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search
>>> and replaced one by one with many repeats.
>>>
>>> This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.
>>>
>>> ----
>>> 2.
>>>
>>> When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the
>>> cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?
>>>
>>> How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?
>>>
>>> Would anybody guide please?
>>>
>> Are you a real Indian?  UTS#29
>> (https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html) Section 3 Paragraph
>> 1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.
>>
>> These particular behaviours you are complaining of annoy me
>> intensely, but I'm a Westerner and so have no rights in these matters.
>>
>> Indic layout is not particularly guilty, though it makes editing
>> clusters difficult.  SIL has a split cursor which attempts to address
>> the issue, but I've only seen it in their Worldpad text editor.
>> Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm unsure of the
>> current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster Unicode
>> character by character, and disables shaping across the cluster.  Even
>> this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
>> canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know whether
>> one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.
>>
>> Emacs does, by default, provide what I consider the civilised behaviour,
>> whereby pressing the delete key deletes the next character.  That makes
>> my life much easier, as I deal with Indic scripts in which it is not at
>> all unusual to have 3 or more marks attached to a single base character.
>>
>> Richard.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Indic mailing list
>> Indic at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> [ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA & Twitter: @cdacindia ]
>
> This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
> disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email
> is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 02:08:44 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (=?UTF-8?B?4KS54KSw4KS/4KSw4KS+4KSu?= via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 13:38:44 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
Message-ID: <CAFz0FBpftZxxeeLzWQ0+-0jxrzeD2Xum6PXy67=1CHKGJpp0sg@mail.gmail.com>

Pl. check again the original text copied from MS word
where at 3 places ZWNJ is used, which converted wrongly, when pasted in
Babelpad

(*???? ??????*, *2017 ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ????? ??
?????? ?? ??????? *
*( ??????? ???? ??? 4 ?????? )*

??????


On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Anand Kumar Sharma <aksharma at cdac.in> wrote:

> Dear Sir
>
> There is option in babel pad to have complex rendering that is FONT menu.
> Please enable that.
>
> screenshot taken from Babel pad version 6.3. on windows 8.1 ,64 bit
>
>
>
> On 07-12-2017 12:56, ?????? via Indic wrote:
>
> Sir,
>
> More rending problems found in
> Babelpad
>
> For example I copied following line from MS word 2007
>
> *???? ??????*, *2017 ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ????? ??
> ?????? ?? ???????  *
> *( ??????? ???? ??? 4 ?????? )*
>
> and pasted it in Babelpad
>
> But it shows wrongly as (Screenshot)
>
>
> *[image: Inline image 1] *
>
> so Babelpad is not a good Indic Editor like MS word.
>
> If you have any Trick/tool to temporarily disable the Indic Shaping Engine
> in MS word
> to enable character-level editing, Kindly inform.
>
> With regards.
>
>
> ??????
> ????? ???? <http://hariraama.blogspot.in>
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Kan!skA via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Strongly Agree with Richard, It's not a layout related issue.
>>
>> You may use BabelPad, for your concerned issue.
>> http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Kaniska PSS Nagraj
>> https://kanis.hk
>>
>>
>>
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 02:11:18 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 13:41:18 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <29d6f426-f459-b588-aa5b-d6a4aaa00c2e@cdac.in>
 <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWVPomRNmQXrajKCW11kmKkw7fPuCA93n6uyqERPOWraRA@mail.gmail.com>

Normally each editors have their own behaviour decisions hard-coded based
on what the developers think is useful for end users, which differs. In
such matters, I find copy pasting between editors the only way to get the
best of both worlds.

On 07-Dec-2017 12:58 PM, "?????? via Indic" <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> Sir,
>
> More rending problems found in
> Babelpad
>
> For example I copied following line from MS word 2007
>
> *???? ??????*, *2017 ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ????? ??
> ?????? ?? ???????  *
> *( ??????? ???? ??? 4 ?????? )*
>
> and pasted it in Babelpad
>
> But it shows wrongly as (Screenshot)
>
>
> *[image: Inline image 1]*
>
> so Babelpad is not a good Indic Editor like MS word.
>
> If you have any Trick/tool to temporarily disable the Indic Shaping Engine
> in MS word
> to enable character-level editing, Kindly inform.
>
> With regards.
>
>
> ??????
> ????? ???? <http://hariraama.blogspot.in>
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Kan!skA via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Strongly Agree with Richard, It's not a layout related issue.
>>
>> You may use BabelPad, for your concerned issue.
>> http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Kaniska PSS Nagraj
>> https://kanis.hk
>>
>>
>> On 07-Dec-17 4:49 AM, Richard Wordingham via Indic wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
>>> ?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher
>>>>
>>>> When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
>>>> For Example
>>>> to replace all
>>>> '?' depended vowel AA
>>>> with
>>>> '?' depended vowel i
>>>>
>>>> it does not works.
>>>>
>>>> Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search
>>>> and replaced one by one with many repeats.
>>>>
>>>> This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> 2.
>>>>
>>>> When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the
>>>> cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being
>>>> deleted.
>>>>
>>>> How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?
>>>>
>>>> How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?
>>>>
>>>> Would anybody guide please?
>>>>
>>> Are you a real Indian?  UTS#29
>>> (https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html) Section 3 Paragraph
>>> 1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.
>>>
>>> These particular behaviours you are complaining of annoy me
>>> intensely, but I'm a Westerner and so have no rights in these matters.
>>>
>>> Indic layout is not particularly guilty, though it makes editing
>>> clusters difficult.  SIL has a split cursor which attempts to address
>>> the issue, but I've only seen it in their Worldpad text editor.
>>> Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm unsure of the
>>> current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster Unicode
>>> character by character, and disables shaping across the cluster.  Even
>>> this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
>>> canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know whether
>>> one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.
>>>
>>> Emacs does, by default, provide what I consider the civilised behaviour,
>>> whereby pressing the delete key deletes the next character.  That makes
>>> my life much easier, as I deal with Indic scripts in which it is not at
>>> all unusual to have 3 or more marks attached to a single base character.
>>>
>>> Richard.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Indic mailing list
>>> Indic at unicode.org
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> [ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA & Twitter: @cdacindia ]
>>
>> This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
>> intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
>> all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
>> disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email
>> is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Indic mailing list
>> Indic at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 03:05:24 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:35:24 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 07-Dec-2017 4:51 AM, "Richard Wordingham via Indic" <indic at unicode.org>
wrote:

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
>
> When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
> For Example
> to replace all
> '?' depended vowel AA
> with
> '?' depended vowel i
>
> it does not works.
>
> Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search
> and replaced one by one with many repeats.
>
> This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.


@Richard he has a valid point, so no need to ask him whether he is really
an Indian! Where else would you want to search-replace a vowel sign except
as part of a grapheme cluster? Surely well formed normal text won't have
one of those standing alone?

> When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the
> cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being
> deleted.
>
> How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?


Press right arrow and use back space. You can't do it from the left.

> How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?


There is no option for this to my knowledge nor is there likely to be
(though not impossible).

>
> Would anybody guide please?

Are you a real Indian?  UTS#29
(https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html) Section 3 Paragraph
1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.


Ok let's quote:

"Grapheme clusters commonly behave as units in terms of mouse selection,
arrow key movement, backspacing, and so on. For example, when a grapheme
cluster is represented internally by a character sequence consisting of
base character + accents, then using the right arrow key would skip from
the start of the base character to the end of the last accent.

However, in some cases editing a grapheme cluster element by element may be
preferable. For example, on a given system the backspace key might delete
by code point, while the delete key may delete an entire cluster."

This doesn't say anything about search and replace. There is unlikely to be
a universally acceptable or even applicable solution for intra grapheme
cursor placement. For example how would you indicate a cursor position in
front of or after a virama which has caused two consonants to ligate?

So IMO the issue is just with intra grapheme cursors and the current common
behaviour of cursors jumping cluster boundaries (and the resultant Del/BkSp
status) is perfectly fine, but search-replace operations need not be
limited by cursor positions and should work per character instead.

That way they are more useful because use cases such as Hariram's are
satisfied. Escape characters or search dialogue options can always be used
to request matches only of complete grapheme clusters just like currently
available for full words.

If OTOH, per character search replace is not provided for at all, that is
indeed a serious limitation IMO as in the old MS Word versions.
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 05:27:33 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (=?UTF-8?B?4KS54KSw4KS/4KSw4KS+4KSu?= via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:57:33 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your technical details.

Many times it is needed to do cluster level Editing of Indic Text/Data.

We have tried to do it in Notepad++
<https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiK8dug4_fXAhVCtY8KHR_ZDeQQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnotepad-plus-plus.org%2Fdownload%2F&usg=AOvVaw3Xxk2nCQhZDS063HXzmla7>
,
Some Hex Editors, but non found perfect or user friendly.

The old Yudit
<https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3q7rd4_fXAhWMro8KHd3qCwIQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yudit.org%2F&usg=AOvVaw1_tpuW-Iwt8OOHUB_QaiyQ>
also
not giving desired functionality.

Is there any HEX/TEXT editor, which supports Unicode (2Byte/3Byte)
Character groups? Which have a split window, one showing with rendering,
another showing code points only in Characters?

Doing editing of big/huge text files having common errors, (with global
search and replace using wordlist), only PYTHON script provides small level
of user friendliness, i.e. directly input of Indic Unicode
chars, But very limited.

Looking for some other editor.



??????


On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Shriramana Sharma via Indic <
indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> .....
>
> So IMO the issue is just with intra grapheme cursors and the current
> common behaviour of cursors jumping cluster boundaries (and the resultant
> Del/BkSp status) is perfectly fine, but search-replace operations need not
> be limited by cursor positions and should work per character instead.
>
> That way they are more useful ... ...
>
> If OTOH, per character search replace is not provided for at all, that is
> indeed a serious limitation IMO as in the old MS Word versions.
>
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 05:51:03 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (=?UTF-8?B?4KS54KSw4KS/4KSw4KS+4KSu?= via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 17:21:03 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, Really this is serious limitation for Indic Editing,

As some WildCards featurs, Search & replace of special characters like
ZWJ/ZWNJ also does not work for Indic Data.

Is Libre Office or other editors allows cluster-level Indic Editing?

??????


... ... that is indeed a serious limitation IMO as in the old MS Word
>> versions.
>>
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>
>>
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 07:13:15 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 18:43:15 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWXHHanUe_iiamm_-+yhgVjByq=tNvOQsNfS8HDGwbRxDA@mail.gmail.com>

Kate on KDE is able to do intra grapheme replacement. I haven't used recent
versions of Windows so I don't know about software available on that
platform.
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 01:44:58 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anand Kumar Sharma via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 13:14:58 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <29d6f426-f459-b588-aa5b-d6a4aaa00c2e@cdac.in>
 <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <519a36a7-bb5e-1818-ae35-b70a49fda1e1@cdac.in>

Dear Sir

There is option in babel pad to have complex rendering that is FONT 
menu. Please enable that.

screenshot taken from Babel pad version 6.3. on windows 8.1 ,64 bit









On 07-12-2017 12:56, ?????? via Indic wrote:
> Sir,
>
> More rending problems found in
> Babelpad
>
> For example I copied following line from MS word 2007
>
> *???? ??????*,***2017 ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ????? 
> ?? ?????? ?? ??????? *
>
> *( ??????? ???? ??? 4 ?????? )*
> *
> *
> and pasted it in Babelpad
>
> But it shows wrongly as (Screenshot)
> *
> *
> *Inline image 1
> *
> *
> *
> so Babelpad is not a good Indic Editor like MS word.
>
> If you have any Trick/tool to temporarily disable the Indic Shaping 
> Engine in MS word
> to enable character-level editing, Kindly inform.
>
> With regards.
> *
> *
>
> ??????
> ????? ???? <http://hariraama.blogspot.in>
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Kan!skA via Indic <indic at unicode.org 
> <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>
>     Strongly Agree with Richard, It's not a layout related issue.
>
>     You may use BabelPad, for your concerned issue.
>     http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html
>     <http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html>
>
>
>     Best Regards,
>     Kaniska PSS Nagraj
>     https://kanis.hk
>
>
>     On 07-Dec-17 4:49 AM, Richard Wordingham via Indic wrote:
>
>         On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
>         ?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org
>         <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>
>             While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher
>
>             When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode
>             Character
>             For Example
>             to replace all
>             '?' depended vowel AA
>             with
>             '?' depended vowel i
>
>             it does not works.
>
>             Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to
>             be search
>             and replaced one by one with many repeats.
>
>             This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.
>
>             ----
>             2.
>
>             When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key
>             putting the
>             cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable
>             is being
>             deleted.
>
>             How to delete a particular character instead of entire
>             syllable?
>
>             How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?
>
>             Would anybody guide please?
>
>         Are you a real Indian?? UTS#29
>         (https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html
>         <https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html>) Section 3
>         Paragraph
>         1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.
>
>         These particular behaviours you are complaining of annoy me
>         intensely, but I'm a Westerner and so have no rights in these
>         matters.
>
>         Indic layout is not particularly guilty, though it makes editing
>         clusters difficult.? SIL has a split cursor which attempts to
>         address
>         the issue, but I've only seen it in their Worldpad text editor.
>         Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm
>         unsure of the
>         current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster
>         Unicode
>         character by character, and disables shaping across the
>         cluster.? Even
>         this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
>         canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know
>         whether
>         one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.
>
>         Emacs does, by default, provide what I consider the civilised
>         behaviour,
>         whereby pressing the delete key deletes the next character.?
>         That makes
>         my life much easier, as I deal with Indic scripts in which it
>         is not at
>         all unusual to have 3 or more marks attached to a single base
>         character.
>
>         Richard.
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Indic mailing list
>         Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>         http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>         <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>
>
>
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     [ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
>     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA
>     <https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA> & Twitter: @cdacindia ]
>
>     This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
>     contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
>     intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
>     destroy
>     all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
>     disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this
>     email
>     is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Indic mailing list
>     Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>     <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic

-- 
Thanks and Regards
*This mail has came from desk of
Anand Kumar Sharma
GIST QA|CDAC-Pune|Ph:020-25503468|http://www.cdac.in
<www.cdac.in>* /
/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA & Twitter: @cdacindia ]

This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
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is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 02:11:54 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Kan!skA via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 13:41:54 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <29d6f426-f459-b588-aa5b-d6a4aaa00c2e@cdac.in>
 <CAFz0FBpn+tX0j7fEJNjND_UQ607wex1e=G2Xs9G+VoZWH+i6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0c63caa6-5371-9bc3-047d-f7c80e778cb5@cdac.in>

Dear Sir,

*There are Zero Width Joiners, which are causing the issue in your PC:*



*In My PC, it is showing perfect: [Windows 10 Pro (64 bit), BabelPad 
10.0.0.5]*



*Q:* If you have any Trick/tool to temporarily disable the Indic Shaping 
Engine in MS word
to enable character-level editing, Kindly inform.
*Ans:* Currently don't have any, I'll update you if found


Best Regards,
Kaniska PSS Nagraj
https://kanis.hk

On 07-Dec-17 12:56 PM, ?????? wrote:
> Sir,
>
> More rending problems found in
> Babelpad
>
> For example I copied following line from MS word 2007
>
> *???? ??????*,***2017 ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ????? 
> ?? ?????? ?? ??????? *
>
> *( ??????? ???? ??? 4 ?????? )*
> *
> *
> and pasted it in Babelpad
>
> But it shows wrongly as (Screenshot)
> *
> *
> *Inline image 1
> *
> *
> *
> so Babelpad is not a good Indic Editor like MS word.
>
> If you have any Trick/tool to temporarily disable the Indic Shaping 
> Engine in MS word
> to enable character-level editing, Kindly inform.
>
> With regards.
> *
> *
>
> ??????
> ????? ???? <http://hariraama.blogspot.in>
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Kan!skA via Indic <indic at unicode.org 
> <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>
>     Strongly Agree with Richard, It's not a layout related issue.
>
>     You may use BabelPad, for your concerned issue.
>     http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html
>     <http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad.html>
>
>
>     Best Regards,
>     Kaniska PSS Nagraj
>     https://kanis.hk
>
>
>     On 07-Dec-17 4:49 AM, Richard Wordingham via Indic wrote:
>
>         On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
>         ?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org
>         <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>
>             While working in MS word 2007, 2010 or higher
>
>             When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode
>             Character
>             For Example
>             to replace all
>             '?' depended vowel AA
>             with
>             '?' depended vowel i
>
>             it does not works.
>
>             Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to
>             be search
>             and replaced one by one with many repeats.
>
>             This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.
>
>             ----
>             2.
>
>             When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key
>             putting the
>             cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable
>             is being
>             deleted.
>
>             How to delete a particular character instead of entire
>             syllable?
>
>             How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?
>
>             Would anybody guide please?
>
>         Are you a real Indian?? UTS#29
>         (https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html
>         <https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html>) Section 3
>         Paragraph
>         1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not natural.
>
>         These particular behaviours you are complaining of annoy me
>         intensely, but I'm a Westerner and so have no rights in these
>         matters.
>
>         Indic layout is not particularly guilty, though it makes editing
>         clusters difficult.? SIL has a split cursor which attempts to
>         address
>         the issue, but I've only seen it in their Worldpad text editor.
>         Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm
>         unsure of the
>         current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster
>         Unicode
>         character by character, and disables shaping across the
>         cluster.? Even
>         this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
>         canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know
>         whether
>         one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.
>
>         Emacs does, by default, provide what I consider the civilised
>         behaviour,
>         whereby pressing the delete key deletes the next character.?
>         That makes
>         my life much easier, as I deal with Indic scripts in which it
>         is not at
>         all unusual to have 3 or more marks attached to a single base
>         character.
>
>         Richard.
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Indic mailing list
>         Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>         http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>         <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>
>
>
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     [ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
>     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA
>     <https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA> & Twitter: @cdacindia ]
>
>     This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
>     contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
>     intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
>     destroy
>     all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
>     disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this
>     email
>     is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Indic mailing list
>     Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>     <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>
>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA & Twitter: @cdacindia ]

This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email
is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 10:19:37 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (maxwell via Indic)
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 11:19:37 -0500
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39c1c9590e30301b5967cc57d1bfe45d@umiacs.umd.edu>

On 2017-12-07 06:51, ?????? via Indic wrote:
> Yes, Really this is serious limitation for Indic Editing,
> 
> As some WildCards featurs, Search & replace of special characters like
> ZWJ/ZWNJ also does not work for Indic Data.

I haven't done any significant editing of Indic text, but I can 
sympathize.  I use the programmer's editor jEdit (which works on 
Windows, Linux and Mac).  Up until version 5.1, it treated combining 
diacritics as separate characters for purposes of editing--so you could 
edit them separately, search for them, etc.  Then, to fix some other 
bug, they began to be treated as part of the preceding base character.  
For many people, that's probably ok; it was not helpful for me, though.  
My bug report is here:
    http://jedit.org/trackers/Bugs/3884.html
The bug report focuses on determining what the Unicode code point of a 
character is, but alludes to the search problem.

I suspect every editor treats things like this differently...  Some 
tools (like SIL's Fieldworks Language Explorer, FLEx) actually turn all 
NFC characters into NFD (or vice versa, I don't remember) under the 
hood.

In summary, I think this is a general problem, not confined to Indic 
text.  Not that this helps you any!

    Mike Maxwell
    University of Maryland


From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 10:33:57 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (maxwell via Indic)
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 11:33:57 -0500
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <226d6990e80d9bcc014e57eb77276383@umiacs.umd.edu>

On 2017-12-06 18:19, Richard Wordingham via Indic wrote:
> Another technique, which has been available in emacs (I'm unsure of the
> current status), enables one to move the cursor into a cluster Unicode
> character by character, and disables shaping across the cluster.  Even
> this will have shortcomings when working with two part vowels
> canonically equivalent to a single character - one won't know whether
> one has one character or two until one steps into the cluster.

This brings up a related question that I've always wondered about.  In 
Bangla, there are two code points, U+09CB and U+09CC, which represent 
two-part vowels; one part appears to the left of the preceding 
consonant, and one to its right.  There are also three code points that 
individually represent the parts to the left and right: U+09C7 is the 
left-hand part of both U+09CB and U+09CC, U+09BE is the right-hand part 
of U+09CB, and U+09D7 is the right-hand part of U+09CC.  The 
relationship of U+09CB and U+09CC to the stand-alone characters is 
documented in the Unicode standard for the Bengali block.

Why are these not treated in the Unicode standard as analogous to 
base+diacritic pairs with respect to NCC and NCD?  E.g. when you convert 
text to NCC, why isn't a sequence of U+09C7 + consonant + U+09BE 
converted to consonant + U+09CB, and vice versa when converting to NCD?  
Instead, when we do things that require normalization (like searching 
for a word in text), we have to insert our own manual normalization step 
to handle this problem.

    Mike Maxwell
    University of Maryland


From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 13:44:05 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Dr. U.B. Pavanaja via Indic)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 01:14:05 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01d36f93$bfbe6d00$3f3b4700$@vishvakannada.com>

I tried in Windows Notepad and it worked

 

-Pavanaja

 

 

From: Indic [mailto:indic-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of ?????? via Indic
Sent: 07 December 2017 04:58 PM
To: Shriramana Sharma; indic at unicode.org
Subject: Re: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word

 

Thanks for your technical details.

 

Many times it is needed to do cluster level Editing of Indic Text/Data.

 

We have tried to do it in Notepad++ <https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiK8dug4_fXAhVCtY8KHR_ZDeQQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnotepad-plus-plus.org%2Fdownload%2F&usg=AOvVaw3Xxk2nCQhZDS063HXzmla7>  , Some Hex Editors, but non found perfect or user friendly.

 

The old Yudit <https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3q7rd4_fXAhWMro8KHd3qCwIQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yudit.org%2F&usg=AOvVaw1_tpuW-Iwt8OOHUB_QaiyQ>  also not giving desired functionality.

 

Is there any HEX/TEXT editor, which supports Unicode (2Byte/3Byte) Character groups? Which have a split window, one showing with rendering, another showing code points only in Characters?

 

Doing editing of big/huge text files having common errors, (with global search and replace using wordlist), only PYTHON script provides small level of user friendliness, i.e. directly input of Indic Unicode 

chars, But very limited.

 

Looking for some other editor.

 

 




??????

 

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Shriramana Sharma via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

.....

 

So IMO the issue is just with intra grapheme cursors and the current common behaviour of cursors jumping cluster boundaries (and the resultant Del/BkSp status) is perfectly fine, but search-replace operations need not be limited by cursor positions and should work per character instead.

 

That way they are more useful ... ...

 

If OTOH, per character search replace is not provided for at all, that is indeed a serious limitation IMO as in the old MS Word versions.


http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic

 

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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 14:38:17 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 20:38:17 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171207203817.7d5e318f@JRWUBU2>

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:35:24 +0530
Shriramana Sharma via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> On 07-Dec-2017 4:51 AM, "Richard Wordingham via Indic"
> <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:47:36 +0530
> >
> > When one try to Find & replace any particular Unicode Character
> > For Example
> > to replace all
> > '?' depended vowel AA
> > with
> > '?' depended vowel i
> >
> > it does not works.
> >
> > Only full syllable with ' ?' i.e. ??, ??, ??, etc. has to be search
> > and replaced one by one with many repeats.
> >
> > This takes too much time and unnecessary repeats.  
> 
> 
> @Richard he has a valid point, so no need to ask him whether he is
> really an Indian! Where else would you want to search-replace a vowel
> sign except as part of a grapheme cluster? Surely well formed normal
> text won't have one of those standing alone?

He's what I've been looking for - evidence that Indic grapheme clusters
are not what Indian users think of as a character.  (Admittedly, Tamil
shows many signs of being an incipient syllabary.)

> > When one try to delete a Indic Character with delete key putting the
> > cursor before a syllable, the right side entire syllable is being
> > deleted.
> >
> > How to delete a particular character instead of entire syllable?  
> 
> 
> Press right arrow and use back space. You can't do it from the left.
> 
> > How to disable the Indic layout feature in MS word?  
> 
> 
> There is no option for this to my knowledge nor is there likely to be
> (though not impossible).
> 
> >
> > Would anybody guide please?  
> 
> Are you a real Indian?  UTS#29
> (https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/tr29-31.html) Section 3
> Paragraph 1 strongly suggests that what you are trying to do is not
> natural.
> 
> 
> Ok let's quote:
> 
> "Grapheme clusters commonly behave as units in terms of mouse
> selection, arrow key movement, backspacing, and so on. For example,
> when a grapheme cluster is represented internally by a character
> sequence consisting of base character + accents, then using the right
> arrow key would skip from the start of the base character to the end
> of the last accent.
> 
> However, in some cases editing a grapheme cluster element by element
> may be preferable. For example, on a given system the backspace key
> might delete by code point, while the delete key may delete an entire
> cluster."
> 
> This doesn't say anything about search and replace.

Paragraph 2 comes close:

"Grapheme cluster boundaries are important for *collation*, regular
expressions, UI interactions (such as mouse selection, arrow key
movement, backspacing), segmentation for vertical text, identification
of boundaries for first-letter styling, and counting ?character?
positions within text. Word boundaries, line boundaries, and sentence
boundaries should not occur within a grapheme cluster: in other words,
a grapheme cluster should be an atomic unit with respect to the process
of determining these other boundaries."

If one accepts that collation is important for search, then that is
where search and replace comes in.  I don't like the principle - I end
up having to use the 'regular expression' option when searching for
short Tai Tham strings in LibreOffice.

> There is unlikely
> to be a universally acceptable or even applicable solution for intra
> grapheme cursor placement. For example how would you indicate a
> cursor position in front of or after a virama which has caused two
> consonants to ligate?

When characters have fused to a single glyph, the usual technique, used
even by Windows for non-Indic text, is to choose a boundary position
within the glyph.  OpenType has a table of positions, but apparently
Windows just places the divisions evenly.  Obviously the simple scheme
doesn't work well when a preposed vowel ligates with the base consonant.

Richard.


From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 15:38:23 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 21:38:23 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <226d6990e80d9bcc014e57eb77276383@umiacs.umd.edu>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <226d6990e80d9bcc014e57eb77276383@umiacs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <20171207213823.2d67dd78@JRWUBU2>

On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 11:33:57 -0500
maxwell via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> Why are these not treated in the Unicode standard as analogous to 
> base+diacritic pairs with respect to NCC and NCD?  E.g. when you
> convert text to NCC, why isn't a sequence of U+09C7 + consonant +
> U+09BE converted to consonant + U+09CB, and vice versa when
> converting to NCD?

I'm puzzled by what you say.  What *looks* like <U+09C7, consonant ,
U+09BE> should, if it is represented by three characters, be encoded as
<consonant, U+09C7, U+09BE>, which is indeed canonically equivalent to
<consonant, U+09CB>.

Richard.

From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 16:18:23 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (maxwell via Indic)
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 17:18:23 -0500
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171207213823.2d67dd78@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <226d6990e80d9bcc014e57eb77276383@umiacs.umd.edu>
 <20171207213823.2d67dd78@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <8938b4eb5c162803649d964332c32573@umiacs.umd.edu>

On 2017-12-07 16:38, Richard Wordingham wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 11:33:57 -0500
> maxwell via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
> 
>> Why are these not treated in the Unicode standard as analogous to
>> base+diacritic pairs with respect to NCC and NCD?  E.g. when you
>> convert text to NCC, why isn't a sequence of U+09C7 + consonant +
>> U+09BE converted to consonant + U+09CB, and vice versa when
>> converting to NCD?
> 
> I'm puzzled by what you say.  What *looks* like <U+09C7, consonant ,
> U+09BE> should, if it is represented by three characters, be encoded as
> <consonant, U+09C7, U+09BE>,

You're of course right, I got the underlying order wrong.

> which is indeed canonically equivalent to
> <consonant, U+09CB>.

It's canonically equivalent--that was what I was trying to say--but the 
last time I tested this using Python's Unicode conversion between NFC 
and NFD, I was sure it did not handle this case.  But I tried it just 
now, and it did work; so either my test was wrong before, or this has 
now been fixed in Python.  In either case, my earlier message was wrong.

    Mike Maxwell
    University of Maryland


From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 16:35:06 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:35:06 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2>

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 17:21:03 +0530
?????? via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> Is Libre Office or other editors allows cluster-level Indic Editing?

LibreOffice allows global substitutions, at least for Tai Tham, which
seems to be subject to almost the full range of Indic woes.  For ZWJ
and ZWNJ, it should work for controlling consonant clusters, though one
may have to remember what the cursor is between as one steps through
??? K.SSA.  In LibreOffice, one benefits from the fact that grapheme
clusters only include one full consonant - K.SSA is the grapheme cluster
<KA, VIRAMA> followed by a grapheme cluster starting with SSA.

In Tai Tham, I occasionally need to type <NA, ZWNJ, SIGN AA>.  I can
convert <NA, SIGN AA> to it because Unicode has a grapheme cluster
boundary before SIGN AA.  Unfortunately, the main rendering engines
don't support the sequence - I rely on my font removing the
uncalled-for dotted circle.

Richard.


From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 18:20:51 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 00:20:51 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:35:06 +0000
Richard Wordingham via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> In LibreOffice, one benefits from the fact that
> grapheme clusters only include one full consonant - K.SSA is the
> grapheme cluster <KA, VIRAMA> followed by a grapheme cluster starting
> with SSA.

However, if the current proposals for UAX#29 go through and there are
then no longer any extended grapheme cluster breaks in <KA, VIRAMA,
SSA>, I fear it will no longer be easy to insert ZWNJ between virama
and a following consonant.

Richard.

From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec  7 18:36:28 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 06:06:28 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2> <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWWbo8O0FFZsm=TGVUxZFkSBqU6jqkB-SYNQoWnUX7yKJg@mail.gmail.com>

The only sane way to insert joiners is at initial input time. Else BkSp
BkSp BkSp then joiner is the only option.
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From indic at unicode.org  Fri Dec  8 08:46:04 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anish V via Indic)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 20:16:04 +0530
Subject: Goykanadi script - script for Konkani language.
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFv+vme_ktxYYEcW+C_tiJbHM=t0Aj2Ffof0aJBhP9QJF5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFv+kmgh0M_JLB0g_MF3KpDFPNhpf6APC8ENWWn5eUMK8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLL7KxkXtw9Hv=5tsL9fDjThZ+D0LN7HLWYZGw2Xq45sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+vme_ktxYYEcW+C_tiJbHM=t0Aj2Ffof0aJBhP9QJF5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRvFv+7M1A-tfT-EpifnQAhf2O8TUwfeHtNhhf+wdFxeuyuZw@mail.gmail.com>

Read that 'Goykanadi' was the original script for writing Konkani language.
But I am not able to find a sample of this on Internet. Could anyone help
with sample of this script?
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From indic at unicode.org  Fri Dec  8 12:12:15 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 18:12:15 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWWbo8O0FFZsm=TGVUxZFkSBqU6jqkB-SYNQoWnUX7yKJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2> <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWWbo8O0FFZsm=TGVUxZFkSBqU6jqkB-SYNQoWnUX7yKJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171208181215.439d1f92@JRWUBU2>

On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 06:06:28 +0530
Shriramana Sharma via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> The only sane way to insert joiners is at initial input time. Else
> BkSp BkSp BkSp then joiner is the only option.

Are you seriously suggesting deleting most of the akshara?  Or are you
using a different key for the function of deleting the preceding
character?

From indic at unicode.org  Fri Dec  8 19:04:00 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Sandeep Subramanian via Indic)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:04:00 -0800
Subject: Goykanadi script - script for Konkani language.
Message-ID: <CANtV=qwaOE--mM5AiosQF9ZmOyKhj90yXZeEBmtLQLR8sr_zcw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Anish,

I am familiar with the Goykanadi script and have explored it in some depth.
I'm currently designing a font for it, after which I will consult some
Konkani language organizations and determine whether it is suitable for
encoding (at which point, I will propose it for encoding). Please feel free
to contact me if you have any questions! If you have any contacts in these
areas as well, I would appreciate your help.

Best regards,
Sandeep

-- 
Sandeep Subramanian
??????? ???????????
University of California, Berkeley
Aug. 2013 - Dec. 2017 (expected)
B.Sc. Chemistry & B.A. Computer Science
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From indic at unicode.org  Sat Dec  9 13:33:16 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Vicknesh Sanmugam via Indic)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:33:16 +0800
Subject: Query on Vedix Extensions
Message-ID: <CANfy+YmRj4Xutk_0ynZUJVpXEjKUFGQtDuLY+zt=enDjG1RvLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings

I've been facing this problem for months. How do i combine two unicodes,
double svarita,  ? (U+1CDA)  and anusvara, ?  (U+0902).

If i insert both uncode independently, the anusvara won't sit in the limit
of the shirorekha. It tend to appear after the intended consonant.

[image: Inline image 2]

Please do help me. Your help will be well appreciated.


Thank you.
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From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 10 00:03:07 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:33:07 +0530
Subject: Query on Vedix Extensions
In-Reply-To: <CANfy+YmRj4Xutk_0ynZUJVpXEjKUFGQtDuLY+zt=enDjG1RvLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANfy+YmRj4Xutk_0ynZUJVpXEjKUFGQtDuLY+zt=enDjG1RvLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWX30tjRRuYCMnRUacszzsuyuTQoxXDQv-p8uvxYbVAsVg@mail.gmail.com>

Some older platforms do not provide proper support for Vedic accents
and insert dotted circles like this thinking that these are not
properly formed sequences. The only solution would be to use a recent
OS.

-- 
Shriramana Sharma ???????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????


From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 10 00:10:02 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:40:02 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171208181215.439d1f92@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2> <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWWbo8O0FFZsm=TGVUxZFkSBqU6jqkB-SYNQoWnUX7yKJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171208181215.439d1f92@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWVa6pJ6zSNKvD4ThEO7VCYUodOdw_9k6+worbDEQ9u0SQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/8/17, Richard Wordingham via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 06:06:28 +0530
> Shriramana Sharma via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>
>> The only sane way to insert joiners is at initial input time. Else
>> BkSp BkSp BkSp then joiner is the only option.
>
> Are you seriously suggesting deleting most of the akshara?  Or are you
> using a different key for the function of deleting the preceding
> character?

Don't get you. I meant that because intra-cluster cursor placement
isn't well representable visually, the only way to reliably place
joiners at a particular place in the text when using a text editor
that performs CTL is at time of initial input.

So if I want to display ??????, what I do is I hit the keys for ?, ?,
ZWJ, ?, ?, ? in that order. If I am faced with pre-input text ?????
and I want to insert the ZWJ in the above position, and if my
platform/application doesn't provide for intra-cluster cursor
placement, I will have to do this to ?????: BkSp, BkSp, BkSp to get ??
and then I input ZWJ and re-type the rest.

-- 
Shriramana Sharma ???????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????


From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 10 00:24:06 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:54:06 +0530
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2> <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWWs6mcr4ygy0xPdZFwupDmtZqdHtiDPD-w1pusyEArPrA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/8/17, Richard Wordingham via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>> In LibreOffice, one benefits from the fact that
>> grapheme clusters only include one full consonant - K.SSA is the
>> grapheme cluster <KA, VIRAMA> followed by a grapheme cluster starting
>> with SSA.
>
> However, if the current proposals for UAX#29 go through and there are
> then no longer any extended grapheme cluster breaks in <KA, VIRAMA,
> SSA>, I fear it will no longer be easy to insert ZWNJ between virama
> and a following consonant.

I noticed the other thread in which you are participating, but unable
to read through and understand due to lack of time to grok the
technicalities.

I notice that in the case of some platforms/apps, for example the
Firefox on Kubuntu 16.04 that I'm using right now, if I place the
cursor before or after a cluster like ????? and use the cursor keys,
the visual cursor doesn't jump the cluster but traverses it
progressively in N steps where N is one more than the number of
viramas inside it. At each step, the logical cursor seems to be placed
*after* a virama.

Are you saying the proposed update to UAX#29 is going to prohibit this
behaviour? That may not be advisable. Why are they trying to do it?

However, I should also note that while this behaviour seems quite
sensible for C1 conjoining cases, it won't help to insert joiners to
request C2-conjoining forms where the ZWJ needs to be put *before* the
virama. For instance in Kannada to get RA + post-base YA as in ????
the sequence is ?, ZWJ, ?, ?. This can only be achieved in initial
input as I said earlier, because post-input, the cursor will only be
placed internally *after* the virama, and putting a ZWJ there just
breaks the cluster like ZWNJ: ????. This is because there is no
defined behaviour for Virama + ZWJ in Kannada.

But I presume Kannadigas can live with that (though I am not one
myself) because such sequences aren't frequently used at all. (In fact
most common users probably aren't aware that they exist.)

OTOH the requirement of inputting ZWJ in Devanagari to inhibit
ligatures in some over-enthusiastic fonts (since such ligatures are
sometimes not uniquely identifiable at  12 points) is a somewhat
*more* often experienced one among those typesetting Devanagari
documents, especially Sanskrit language ones with heavy cluster use.
So it would be useful to retain the behaviour of placing cursors after
intra-cluster virama-s.

-- 
Shriramana Sharma ???????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????


From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 10 05:56:55 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:56:55 +0000
Subject: How to disable Indic syllable form editing in MS word
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWWs6mcr4ygy0xPdZFwupDmtZqdHtiDPD-w1pusyEArPrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFz0FBqe1m+Ovw9E3D_PD-ijABZMXcr38Hm-Do60cfz5GKFMCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171206231916.57d80bc3@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWU7ABBpfUNEJuzFf7MKnCskBKGDm19VJsbtFuV2NQ1Dcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWW4iDDPuqM4ez=gcPUuw5N93Rr=PGDJB4OMr73Cc4M+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBoOrHO1ckbp53Omn1er3=uTKUWb=do06q2eaWecgm+dJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFz0FBqnW3ePJ027h2GuBHL77XgDK5PjhKo5q9d23t1+bsP9Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171207223506.3b8494ea@JRWUBU2> <20171208002051.529c5987@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWWs6mcr4ygy0xPdZFwupDmtZqdHtiDPD-w1pusyEArPrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171210115655.0f717b22@JRWUBU2>

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:54:06 +0530
Shriramana Sharma via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> I notice that in the case of some platforms/apps, for example the
> Firefox on Kubuntu 16.04 that I'm using right now, if I place the
> cursor before or after a cluster like ????? and use the cursor keys,
> the visual cursor doesn't jump the cluster but traverses it
> progressively in N steps where N is one more than the number of
> viramas inside it. At each step, the logical cursor seems to be placed
> *after* a virama.
> 
> Are you saying the proposed update to UAX#29 is going to prohibit this
> behaviour? That may not be advisable. Why are they trying to do it?

The conspiracy view is that SE Asia has not been forgiven for the USA
losing the Vietnamese War, coupled in the case of USE with an
Abrahamist attack on the script of the Dharma.  (The 'Tham' in 'Tai
Tham' means 'Dharma'.)  A tradition of wearing turbans just magnifies
the offence.  You can combine this with the declaration that U+2060 WORD
JOINER does not indicate that text on either side is part of the same
word. That declaration is a threat to spell checkers, which depend on a
highly fallible word breaking algorithm to find word boundaries in the
first place.  Foreign names can be particularly awkward.

Contact with the personalities involved suggest that is actually the
cock-up theory that is true.

In this particular case, there are two paragraphs in UAX#29 that do
the damage:

"The Unicode Standard provides default algorithms for determining
grapheme cluster boundaries, with two variants: legacy grapheme
clusters and extended grapheme clusters. The most appropriate variant
depends on the language and operation involved. However, the extended
grapheme cluster boundaries are recommended for general processing,
while the legacy grapheme cluster boundaries are maintained primarily
for backwards compatibility with earlier versions of this
specification."

"An extended grapheme cluster is the same as a legacy
grapheme cluster, with the addition of some other characters. The
continuing characters are extended to include all spacing combining
marks, such as the spacing (but dependent) vowel signs in Indic
scripts. For example, this includes U+093F ( ? ) DEVANAGARI VOWEL SIGN
I. The extended grapheme clusters should be used in implementations in
preference to legacy grapheme clusters, because they provide better
results for Indic scripts such as Tamil or Devanagari in which editing
by orthographic syllable is typically preferred. For scripts such as
Thai, Lao, and certain other Southeast Asian scripts, editing by visual
unit is typically preferred, so for those scripts the behavior of
extended grapheme clusters is similar to (but not identical to) the
behavior of legacy grapheme clusters."

A case history is the addition of the 'prepend' class for the Tai
vowels that are encoded in visual order rather than phonetic order.
They had gc=Lo, and had been very accessible when editing.  When the
prepend class was added, editors started to treat preposed vowel plus
consonant as indivisible units once they had been entered, and there
were howls of protest from Thailand.  The key effect of the change was
withdrawn, with the preposed vowels reverting to having the grapheme
cluster break value 'other'.  For a while, there were no characters
with gcb=prepend.


> However, I should also note that while this behaviour seems quite
> sensible for C1 conjoining cases, it won't help to insert joiners to
> request C2-conjoining forms where the ZWJ needs to be put *before* the
> virama. For instance in Kannada to get RA + post-base YA as in ????
> the sequence is ?, ZWJ, ?, ?. This can only be achieved in initial
> input as I said earlier, because post-input, the cursor will only be
> placed internally *after* the virama, and putting a ZWJ there just
> breaks the cluster like ZWNJ: ????. This is because there is no
> defined behaviour for Virama + ZWJ in Kannada.
> 
> But I presume Kannadigas can live with that (though I am not one
> myself) because such sequences aren't frequently used at all. (In fact
> most common users probably aren't aware that they exist.)

It's a case of a suboptimal system being better than nothing.  One can
position the cursor before the second consonant, delete *just* the
virama, and then type <ZWJ, VIRAMA>.  At no time do you lose the
consonants.  Scripts with consonant signs are not so lucky - the
consonant signs tend to be lost if the first consonant of the cluster is
mistyped.

One of the joys of Emacs for Tai Tham is that it allows one to delete
and replace the first consonant of cluster.  Northern Thai Tai Tham has
such glorious clusters as ????????? <U+1A49 HIGH HA, U+1A60 SAKOT,
U+1A36 NA, U+1A6E SIGN E, U+1A6C SIGN OA BELOW, U+1A65 SIGN I, U+1A75
TONE-1, U+1A60 SAKOT, U+1A3F LOW YA> /n?ai/ 'to ache all over'.  (The
Siamese cognate is normally translated just as 'tired'.)  At present
that akshara is split into three grapheme clusters, composed of 2, 6
and 1 characters. (A user perception might split it into four
logically contiguous groups of 3, 3, 1 and 2 characters for onset,
vowel, tone and final consonant.) When the change goes through, this
will be just one extended grapheme cluster, and even harder to edit.

Richard.


From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 10 06:08:29 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:29 +0000
Subject: Query on Vedix Extensions
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWX30tjRRuYCMnRUacszzsuyuTQoxXDQv-p8uvxYbVAsVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANfy+YmRj4Xutk_0ynZUJVpXEjKUFGQtDuLY+zt=enDjG1RvLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWX30tjRRuYCMnRUacszzsuyuTQoxXDQv-p8uvxYbVAsVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171210120829.6b8c3062@JRWUBU2>

On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:33:07 +0530
Shriramana Sharma via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> Some older platforms do not provide proper support for Vedic accents
> and insert dotted circles like this thinking that these are not
> properly formed sequences. The only solution would be to use a recent
> OS.

Alternatively, I expect you can use applications that use HarfBuzz
regardless of the host.  I believe that now includes LibreOffice and
Firefox, though on Linux LibreOffice is liable to use the system's
sharable object, which you might have to update yourself.  I didn't
have a suitable font to check them out on my system.

Richard.

From indic at unicode.org  Mon Dec 11 19:05:18 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anish V via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 06:35:18 +0530
Subject: Goykanadi script - script for Konkani language.
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFv+7M1A-tfT-EpifnQAhf2O8TUwfeHtNhhf+wdFxeuyuZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFv+kmgh0M_JLB0g_MF3KpDFPNhpf6APC8ENWWn5eUMK8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLL7KxkXtw9Hv=5tsL9fDjThZ+D0LN7HLWYZGw2Xq45sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+vme_ktxYYEcW+C_tiJbHM=t0Aj2Ffof0aJBhP9QJF5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+7M1A-tfT-EpifnQAhf2O8TUwfeHtNhhf+wdFxeuyuZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRvFv+0bqrmbcraYw78Ho82bgvRmjNC+O+VnuJZ6D1qVkVY1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Sandeep,

Thanks for the reply. Somehow I am not getting daily digest mails now, but
saw your reply from archive. Unfortunately your attachment seems scrubbed.
Could you please attach it and send?
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 10:51:09 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anish V via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 22:21:09 +0530
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

   Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of Devanagari
vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in post
independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are
attached for reference.
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 12:29:42 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 10:29:42 -0800
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>

Isn't it simply different font?
Why can not a different font handle this?
Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence?

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
>    Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of Devanagari
> vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in post
> independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are
> attached for reference.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
>


-- 
----
~Kiran Kumar Chava
<http://geek.chavakiran.com>http://kinige.com
http://suravara.com
http://chavakiran.com
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 12:45:09 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anshuman Pandey via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 12:45:09 -0600
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>

Such variants generally do not appear concurrently as they are part of stylistic sets associated with scribal and, eventually, print traditions. Apart from ?, there are variants for letters such as ?, ?, etc, and conjuncts such as ???, ???, as well as digits, eg. ?, ?. These should be handled typographically. But, it is unfortunate that a user can?t specifically choose which alternate set they?d like.

All my best,
Anshuman


> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
> 
> Isn't it simply different font? 
> Why can not a different font handle this? 
> Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence? 
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>>    Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of Devanagari vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in post independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are attached for reference.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Indic mailing list
>> Indic at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ----
> ~Kiran Kumar Chava
> http://kinige.com 
> http://suravara.com
> http://chavakiran.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 12:49:34 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anish V via Indic)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 00:19:34 +0530
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for the clarification.
Is there any font supporting this variant format?

On Dec 13, 2017 00:15, "Anshuman Pandey" <pandey at umich.edu> wrote:

> Such variants generally do not appear concurrently as they are part of
> stylistic sets associated with scribal and, eventually, print traditions.
> Apart from ?, there are variants for letters such as ?, ?, etc, and
> conjuncts such as ???, ???, as well as digits, eg. ?, ?. These should be
> handled typographically. But, it is unfortunate that a user can?t
> specifically choose which alternate set they?d like.
>
> All my best,
> Anshuman
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic <
> indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>
> Isn't it simply different font?
> Why can not a different font handle this?
> Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence?
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>    Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of Devanagari
>> vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in post
>> independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are
>> attached for reference.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Indic mailing list
>> Indic at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ----
> ~Kiran Kumar Chava
> <http://geek.chavakiran.com>http://kinige.com
> http://suravara.com
> http://chavakiran.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 13:50:18 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Patrick Chew via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:50:18 -0800
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>

Chandas and Uttara are full fonts that ought to show the differences... not
a single font, however...

http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
wrote:

> Thank you for the clarification.
> Is there any font supporting this variant format?
>
> On Dec 13, 2017 00:15, "Anshuman Pandey" <pandey at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Such variants generally do not appear concurrently as they are part of
>> stylistic sets associated with scribal and, eventually, print traditions.
>> Apart from ?, there are variants for letters such as ?, ?, etc, and
>> conjuncts such as ???, ???, as well as digits, eg. ?, ?. These should be
>> handled typographically. But, it is unfortunate that a user can?t
>> specifically choose which alternate set they?d like.
>>
>> All my best,
>> Anshuman
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic <
>> indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't it simply different font?
>> Why can not a different font handle this?
>> Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence?
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>    Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of Devanagari
>>> vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in post
>>> independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are
>>> attached for reference.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Indic mailing list
>>> Indic at unicode.org
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----
>> ~Kiran Kumar Chava
>> <http://geek.chavakiran.com>http://kinige.com
>> http://suravara.com
>> http://chavakiran.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Indic mailing list
>> Indic at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 13:50:51 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anshuman Pandey via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 13:50:51 -0600
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9FC9102D-B0EC-4275-972F-44BB1C42D1AC@umich.edu>

The Chandas and Uttara fonts support these ?southern? and ?northern? styles:

http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/

All my best,
Anshuman


> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:49 PM, Anish V <anish.1234.mail at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for the clarification. 
> Is there any font supporting this variant format?
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2017 00:15, "Anshuman Pandey" <pandey at umich.edu> wrote:
>> Such variants generally do not appear concurrently as they are part of stylistic sets associated with scribal and, eventually, print traditions. Apart from ?, there are variants for letters such as ?, ?, etc, and conjuncts such as ???, ???, as well as digits, eg. ?, ?. These should be handled typographically. But, it is unfortunate that a user can?t specifically choose which alternate set they?d like.
>> 
>> All my best,
>> Anshuman
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Isn't it simply different font? 
>>> Why can not a different font handle this? 
>>> Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence? 
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> 
>>>>    Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of Devanagari vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in post independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are attached for reference.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Indic mailing list
>>>> Indic at unicode.org
>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> ----
>>> ~Kiran Kumar Chava
>>> http://kinige.com 
>>> http://suravara.com
>>> http://chavakiran.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Indic mailing list
>>> Indic at unicode.org
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 13:57:51 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Patrick Chew via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:57:51 -0800
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>

As it turns out, SIL's Anapurna font shows both sets of variants in a
single font: https://software.sil.org/annapurna/, c.f.
http://software.sil.org/downloads/r/annapurna/AnnapurnaSIL-features.pdf

These differences are accessible only via applications that are smart
feature capable, e.g. LibreOffice.

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Patrick Chew <patrick.chew at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Chandas and Uttara are full fonts that ought to show the differences...
> not a single font, however...
>
> http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the clarification.
>> Is there any font supporting this variant format?
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2017 00:15, "Anshuman Pandey" <pandey at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Such variants generally do not appear concurrently as they are part of
>>> stylistic sets associated with scribal and, eventually, print traditions.
>>> Apart from ?, there are variants for letters such as ?, ?, etc, and
>>> conjuncts such as ???, ???, as well as digits, eg. ?, ?. These should be
>>> handled typographically. But, it is unfortunate that a user can?t
>>> specifically choose which alternate set they?d like.
>>>
>>> All my best,
>>> Anshuman
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic <
>>> indic at unicode.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't it simply different font?
>>> Why can not a different font handle this?
>>> Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic <indic at unicode.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>    Is there any current proposal to encode alternate forms of
>>>> Devanagari vowels? I don't think they are archaic forms, we can see some in
>>>> post independence Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins are
>>>> attached for reference.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Indic mailing list
>>>> Indic at unicode.org
>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ----
>>> ~Kiran Kumar Chava
>>> <http://geek.chavakiran.com>http://kinige.com
>>> http://suravara.com
>>> http://chavakiran.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Indic mailing list
>>> Indic at unicode.org
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Indic mailing list
>> Indic at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>
>>
>
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 18:55:50 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Richard Wordingham via Indic)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 00:55:50 +0000
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20171213005550.75c5faa4@JRWUBU2>

On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:57:51 -0800
Patrick Chew via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> As it turns out, SIL's Anapurna font shows both sets of variants in a
> single font: https://software.sil.org/annapurna/, c.f.
> http://software.sil.org/downloads/r/annapurna/AnnapurnaSIL-features.pdf

> 
> These differences are accessible only via applications that are smart
> feature capable, e.g. LibreOffice.

And MS Edge and Firefox support OpenType features via CSS.

Richard.

From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 19:03:40 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Shriramana Sharma via Indic)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 06:33:40 +0530
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWWB6T089OfHZxWZ07oodHNPM_CX4Lg0h9-hWFeK3DEtDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171213005550.75c5faa4@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWWB6T089OfHZxWZ07oodHNPM_CX4Lg0h9-hWFeK3DEtDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH-HCWX24BMH0FPso-4iz3tV5=kqUty9ErxgN6P4_j-G+RsDfw@mail.gmail.com>

Do I understand correctly that Open Type features need to be specified as
part of the standard? OTOH Graphite features don't and can just be provided
by the font maker.

On 13-Dec-2017 6:28 AM, "Richard Wordingham via Indic" <indic at unicode.org>
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:57:51 -0800
Patrick Chew via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:

> As it turns out, SIL's Anapurna font shows both sets of variants in a
> single font: https://software.sil.org/annapurna/, c.f.
> http://software.sil.org/downloads/r/annapurna/AnnapurnaSIL-features.pdf

>
> These differences are accessible only via applications that are smart
> feature capable, e.g. LibreOffice.

And MS Edge and Firefox support OpenType features via CSS.

Richard.
_______________________________________________
Indic mailing list
Indic at unicode.org
http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
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From indic at unicode.org  Tue Dec 12 20:31:35 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (John Hudson via Indic)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 18:31:35 -0800
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAH-HCWX24BMH0FPso-4iz3tV5=kqUty9ErxgN6P4_j-G+RsDfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20171213005550.75c5faa4@JRWUBU2>
 <CAH-HCWWB6T089OfHZxWZ07oodHNPM_CX4Lg0h9-hWFeK3DEtDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH-HCWX24BMH0FPso-4iz3tV5=kqUty9ErxgN6P4_j-G+RsDfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7da28f5c-6fec-1100-b2cd-976b86b9dd65@tiro.ca>

On 12/12/17 17:03, Shriramana Sharma via Indic wrote:
> Do I understand correctly that Open Type features need to be specified 
> as part of the standard? OTOH Graphite features don't and can just be 
> provided by the font maker.


Interoperable OpenType Layout features need to be registered, so that 
they have agreed upon behaviour and predictable results. In the case of 
variant glyph forms such as the regional historical forms of Devanagari 
letters, there are a few different ways in which these could be accessed 
using existing variant glyph substitution (GSUB) features.

1. If associated with specific orthographic use, as defined by an OTL 
Language System tag, then the Localised Forms <locl> feature can be 
used. So this is the case for the subset of variant Devanagari forms 
preferred in Marathi typography. However, in terms of historical 
regional use for Sanskrit, this option is not available because there is 
only one Language System tag associated with Sanskrit.

2. If associated as a variant set, as I understand the case to be with 
the Sanskrit vowel letter forms, then these can be implemented via a 
Stylistic Set <ss01...20> feature. A feature name can be associated with 
the feature via the font name table, and this may be exposed in some UIs.

3. Variants of individual characters can be implemented using the 
Character Variants <cv01...99> features.

Note that variants can be accessed using more than one feature, so it is 
possible for variants to be associated with Language System tags, and as 
stylistic sets, and as individual character variants.


The other way to provide variant forms, especially regional- or 
language-specific sets, is as separate fonts. This is the most robust 
mechanism, and hence why for the Murty Library typefaces we provided 
separate Murty Hindi and Murty Sanskrit fonts (we expect to add a Murty 
Marathi font in future).

JH


-- 

John Hudson
Tiro Typeworks Ltd    www.tiro.com
Salish Sea, BC        tiro at tiro.com

NOTE: In the interests of productivity, I am currently
dealing with email on only two days per week, usually
Monday and Thursday unless this schedule is disrupted
by travel. If you need to contact me urgently, please
use some other method of communication. Thank you.


From indic at unicode.org  Wed Dec 13 08:30:15 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Bobby de Vos via Indic)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 07:30:15 -0700
Subject: Devanagari vowels - Alternative forms.
In-Reply-To: <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvK27HftDXTOAhDbLsPjKg+CjuXdMMkXSt+6gVwh4Ke39g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvKw0kvpcvV7o42D8u6BxXTTDFwHPyDqzfZRxah1B8mpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFv+AvfYiNdudbaAJKPHfkGDed2LdJVd5Ljxp+5x8t+RjDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRvFvLYHTSw2a1vQg1PjMSixd0B4kipu+GKS=rq=JpQ9S0MuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+rhyeiJjsp5cLDemLQ=SNMW2ABuENBPWwnxv4q6QS+YAWrFVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D38EC52B-9F97-4A43-8DBB-1C891D00096B@umich.edu>
 <CAFRvFvK8ixRt8WzJyk9=0QEbvhQvM0UHoeMdiFap_D7onyhOLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce5sSrqVm4QJ3f-fgt3NoG4i_EWuzqoqQ=8nbS-aW+PENg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFPDce4TC-pwDNNAhBNHA2GEEZAkyzSg6o8B=xDLUiVZnh_ZYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9599ba2-66cf-a8aa-2eb8-67109c667116@sil.org>

Greetings,

In a later email in this thread, John Hudson mentioned a method with
wider application support, which is to provide a separate font with the
desired features. With Annapurna SIL, we can do both (have a separate
font for applications that do not support smart font features, and
having the flexibility of glyph variants in? a single font). You can
make a custom version of Annapurna SIL with the desired glyph variants
at https://scripts.sil.org/ttw/fonts2go.cgi The resulting font would
work in applications that do not support smart font features.

Bobby

On 2017-12-12 12:57, Patrick Chew via Indic wrote:
> As it turns out, SIL's Anapurna font shows both sets of variants in a
> single font: https://software.sil.org/annapurna/, c.f.
> http://software.sil.org/downloads/r/annapurna/AnnapurnaSIL-features.pdf
>
> These differences are accessible only via applications that are smart
> feature capable, e.g. LibreOffice.
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Patrick Chew <patrick.chew at gmail.com
> <mailto:patrick.chew at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Chandas and Uttara are full fonts that ought to show the
>     differences... not a single font, however...
>
>     http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/
>     <http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/>
>
>     On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Anish V via Indic
>     <indic at unicode.org <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>
>         Thank you for the clarification.?
>         Is there any font supporting this variant format?
>
>         On Dec 13, 2017 00:15, "Anshuman Pandey" <pandey at umich.edu
>         <mailto:pandey at umich.edu>> wrote:
>
>             Such variants generally do not appear concurrently as they
>             are part of stylistic sets associated with scribal and,
>             eventually, print traditions. Apart from ?, there are
>             variants for letters such as ?, ?, etc, and conjuncts such
>             as ???, ???, as well as digits, eg. ?, ?. These should be
>             handled typographically. But, it is unfortunate that a
>             user can?t specifically choose which alternate set they?d
>             like.
>
>             All my best,
>             Anshuman
>
>
>             On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Kiran Kumar Chava via Indic
>             <indic at unicode.org <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>
>>             Isn't it simply different font??
>>             Why can not a different font handle this??
>>             Are both used simultaneously in a single sentence??
>>
>>             On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Anish V via Indic
>>             <indic at unicode.org <mailto:indic at unicode.org>> wrote:
>>
>>                 Hello,
>>
>>                 ? ?Is there any current proposal to encode alternate
>>                 forms of Devanagari vowels? I don't think they are
>>                 archaic forms, we can see some in post independence
>>                 Indian coins also. The images of scripts and coins
>>                 are attached for reference.
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Indic mailing list
>>                 Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>>                 http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>                 <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             -- 
>>             ----
>>             ~Kiran Kumar Chava
>>             http://kinige.com
>>             http://suravara.com
>>             http://chavakiran.com
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Indic mailing list
>>             Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>>             http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>>             <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Indic mailing list
>         Indic at unicode.org <mailto:Indic at unicode.org>
>         http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>         <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic

-- 
Bobby de Vos
/bobby_devos at sil.org/
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From indic at unicode.org  Thu Dec 14 04:36:53 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anish V via Indic)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 16:06:53 +0530
Subject: Tigalari / Tulu Unicode
In-Reply-To: <CAFRvFvJe63CZ_C_iN50DuwZ2EhvZxG4LbsNQ2ZGJnfFbqOBmJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFRvFvJe63CZ_C_iN50DuwZ2EhvZxG4LbsNQ2ZGJnfFbqOBmJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRvFvL83mbPEfZNU548n0k6UOPeQRFQwvMwE6YDqSgodAOT0A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Why is the Tigalari proposal in unicode SMP plane link password protected
from viewing? Other proposals in blue (like Vatteluttu) are not protected
or restricted like this.
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From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 31 01:32:17 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Manish Goregaokar via Indic)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:02:17 +0530
Subject: Eyelash Ra in Marathi
Message-ID: <CAFOnWkm1LHnT-YMd8YP-LJogSTjRpzm9__SXcxv1XJuGP8mj+w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Marathi's Balbodh version of Devanagari has the Eyelash Reph, which is an
alternate way of writing the <ra-virama> reph half form, and can be seen in
???? (as opposed to ???, which uses the regular reph).

I recall seeing this same form used to make a full letter ? (ra) in older
texts at museums. These were written in Devanagari/Balbodh, but the use of
the "eyelash ra" seems to be reminiscent of the Modi "ra". Basically, it
looked something like ????, but with a longer and more curved eyelash.

I'm unable to find instances of this anymore (it's been a while since I saw
this in museums, I don't recall which ones this was at). If it's a distinct
letter form like the eyelash reph it might be worth encoding. Does anyone
know of this letter form and where I can find it?

Thanks,
-Manish
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From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 31 11:31:05 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Anshuman Pandey via Indic)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:31:05 -0800
Subject: Eyelash Ra in Marathi
In-Reply-To: <CAFOnWkm1LHnT-YMd8YP-LJogSTjRpzm9__SXcxv1XJuGP8mj+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFOnWkm1LHnT-YMd8YP-LJogSTjRpzm9__SXcxv1XJuGP8mj+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B237EDF-2619-4457-A82F-41840F32A585@umich.edu>

Hi Manish,

The variant of RA you describe seems to be similar to the form used in Newa, ie. U+1142C. I?m not sure about its derivation.

All my best,
Anshu


> On Dec 30, 2017, at 11:32 PM, Manish Goregaokar via Indic <indic at unicode.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Marathi's Balbodh version of Devanagari has the Eyelash Reph, which is an alternate way of writing the <ra-virama> reph half form, and can be seen in ???? (as opposed to ???, which uses the regular reph).
> 
> I recall seeing this same form used to make a full letter ? (ra) in older texts at museums. These were written in Devanagari/Balbodh, but the use of the "eyelash ra" seems to be reminiscent of the Modi "ra". Basically, it looked something like ????, but with a longer and more curved eyelash.
> 
> I'm unable to find instances of this anymore (it's been a while since I saw this in museums, I don't recall which ones this was at). If it's a distinct letter form like the eyelash reph it might be worth encoding. Does anyone know of this letter form and where I can find it?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Manish
> _______________________________________________
> Indic mailing list
> Indic at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic


From indic at unicode.org  Sun Dec 31 11:41:11 2017
From: indic at unicode.org (Manish Goregaokar via Indic)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 23:11:11 +0530
Subject: Eyelash Ra in Marathi
In-Reply-To: <3B237EDF-2619-4457-A82F-41840F32A585@umich.edu>
References: <CAFOnWkm1LHnT-YMd8YP-LJogSTjRpzm9__SXcxv1XJuGP8mj+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3B237EDF-2619-4457-A82F-41840F32A585@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFOnWknb+TLttxhJ8HV770gCFEWpfSxQ7wpwySEcWDFWe4emPA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks. These texts were in Maharashtra and it was clearly Devanagari
(aside from the weird ra), however. Still, there might be a shared history
with the newa ra.

On Dec 31, 2017 11:01 PM, "Anshuman Pandey" <pandey at umich.edu> wrote:

> Hi Manish,
>
> The variant of RA you describe seems to be similar to the form used in
> Newa, ie. U+1142C. I?m not sure about its derivation.
>
> All my best,
> Anshu
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 2017, at 11:32 PM, Manish Goregaokar via Indic <
> indic at unicode.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Marathi's Balbodh version of Devanagari has the Eyelash Reph, which is
> an alternate way of writing the <ra-virama> reph half form, and can be seen
> in ???? (as opposed to ???, which uses the regular reph).
> >
> > I recall seeing this same form used to make a full letter ? (ra) in
> older texts at museums. These were written in Devanagari/Balbodh, but the
> use of the "eyelash ra" seems to be reminiscent of the Modi "ra".
> Basically, it looked something like ????, but with a longer and more curved
> eyelash.
> >
> > I'm unable to find instances of this anymore (it's been a while since I
> saw this in museums, I don't recall which ones this was at). If it's a
> distinct letter form like the eyelash reph it might be worth encoding. Does
> anyone know of this letter form and where I can find it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Manish
> > _______________________________________________
> > Indic mailing list
> > Indic at unicode.org
> > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/indic
>
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