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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">Hi Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">(I haven’t seen a response to this thread yet)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">In the proposed PersonName spec, we have left gender out of the name formatting, as the spec is specific to the name only, and not the grammatical context of the surrounding
text. The current spec expects the calling application to know, and provide the correctly formatted honorifics or gender-specific connector terms, such as “Farrah
<b><i>bint</i></b> Ibrahim” vs “Mohammed <b><i>bin</i></b> Ibrahim”. There is currently no accommodation for standard honorifics lists such as “Mr, Ms, Mrs, Mx, Dr”, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">But gender as part of a person object that happens to also contain the personName, and possibly variations of the personName (also-known-as, preferred-name, legal-name, birth-name,
etc.) makes perfect sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">What I have found on “standards” for gender enumeration are as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.iso20022.org/standardsrepository/type/GenderCode">ISO 20022</a> – Financial Industry – only has
male, female<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_5218">ISO 5218</a>: not known, male, female, not applicable<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><a href="https://deedpolloffice.com/change-name/changing-your-gender">UK Deed Poll</a>: male, female, neither male
nor female. <a href="https://datadictionary.nhs.uk/attributes/person_gender_code.html">
NHS</a> appears to be using the ISO 5218 codes<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><a href="http://microformats.org/wiki/gender-formats">vCard4</a>: male, female, other, nor or not applicable, unknown<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">One thing to consider is that in the evolution of “diversity and inclusion” as part of user interface and data design, we now have the
<i>preferred pronoun</i> as part of the expected de facto person descriptor (<a href="https://blog.workday.com/en-us/2017/supporting-workday-customers-on-their-diversity-journeys.html">WorkDay link</a>;
<a href="https://center.dso.iastate.edu/files/documents/2021-03/Guide%20to%20Pair%20Pronouns%20to%20the%20Preferred%20Name%20Field%20in%20Workday%202-24-21.pdf">
example English</a> implementation details.). This can affect the surrounding grammar as well. Pronouns can add plural grammar with “they/them” and indeterminate gender with new terms such as “ze/hir”. Good discussion at
<a href="https://www.ibm.com/blogs/think/2020/07/gender-pronouns-how-small-words-make-a-big-difference/">
IBM</a>. Taking a look at the descriptors that go into <a href="https://community.workday.com/sites/default/files/file-hosting/productionapi/Human_Resources/v37.1/Human_Resources.html">
person data in WorkDay</a> is insightful wrt names, gender, pronouns, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif;color:black">Mike McKenna</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><img border="0" width="48" height="57" style="width:.5in;height:.5937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D7ECEC.2A193110" alt="A close up of a sign
Description automatically generated"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#2F5496">Pay</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#00B0F0">Pal</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif;color:#4472C4">World-Ready<br>
Engineering</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Gill Sans",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">CLDR-Users <cldr-users-bounces@corp.unicode.org> on behalf of Robert Stepanek via CLDR-Users <cldr-users@corp.unicode.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>cldr-users@corp.unicode.org <cldr-users@corp.unicode.org><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Mario Loffredo <mario.loffredo@iit.cnr.it>, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Person Name: Gender-specific formatting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">This message has links and attachments, please check both carefully before opening.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:white">Hi,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I am co-authoring an IETF standards draft to represent contacts and addressbook data (</span><a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-ietf-jmap-jscontact-09.html&data=04%7C01%7Cmimckenna%40paypal.com%7C134d5f0b0f924f9d4fd008d9b4ebc5f0%7Cfb00791460204374977e21bac5f3f4c8%7C0%7C0%7C637739748806289685%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jdWyhMpncGHTm2zmuSb8aYvdg16NjI5vjK93oohSCfI%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">draft-ietf-jmap-jscontact</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt">).
It aims to provide a backward-compatible alternative to the widely used VCARD contacts data format (</span><a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc6350&data=04%7C01%7Cmimckenna%40paypal.com%7C134d5f0b0f924f9d4fd008d9b4ebc5f0%7Cfb00791460204374977e21bac5f3f4c8%7C0%7C0%7C637739748806299640%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fs%2B4krjeExB7ynp3APyKs0xHmAzUwQBz1tUs20fsRVg%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">RFC
6350</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt">). I see that Unicode PRI 434 has an open issue with regards to gender-specific formatting, and I would appreciate if we could share our findings in that area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">One unresolved issue in our RFC draft is how to indicate the grammatical gender to use when addressing a name. This may be required to choose a honorific such as "Mr." or "Mrs." (in case the name object does
not explicitly state them). Also, in some languages a grammatical gender is required for salutations (e.g. "Liebe Anna" vs. "Lieber Robert" in German).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The VCARD standard defined a </span>
<a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc6350%23section-6.2.7&data=04%7C01%7Cmimckenna%40paypal.com%7C134d5f0b0f924f9d4fd008d9b4ebc5f0%7Cfb00791460204374977e21bac5f3f4c8%7C0%7C0%7C637739748806299640%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vDGQAmFiuzxFw3guXuInqQlzJ9PS1WM5TksvkLqekr4%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">GENDER</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
property to indicate the biological sex of a contact (and also a free-text value for gender). Some applications used this biological sex attribute to store and determine the grammatical gender of a contact. This is problematic because the biological sex and
grammatical gender may not be equal. Also, the enumeration of allowed biological sex values seems poorly chosen, both in grammatical and biological contexts (e.g. "none", "other").<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I wonder if a "grammaticalGender" field on a name might make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It looks to me as if "male", "female", "neuter" would cover a large number of languages, but I also understand that some allow for more genders (e.g. according to this
</span><a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGrammatical_gender%23Mostly_semantic_criteria&data=04%7C01%7Cmimckenna%40paypal.com%7C134d5f0b0f924f9d4fd008d9b4ebc5f0%7Cfb00791460204374977e21bac5f3f4c8%7C0%7C0%7C637739748806309597%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=adgONRPtZ1rHBPiqBBRtL%2BpVL%2FT5eSDb%2FzaiFECdio8%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Wikipedia</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
entry the Zande language has four genders: male human, female human, animal and inanimate). Probably a free text-value in combination with a few predefined values for common genders could do the trick. That being said, I am not educated in linguistics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Could you please share your thoughts on gender-specific formatting in PRI434? At best, we could come to a solution that fits both standard works.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Robert<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">P.S. in CC are my co-author as well as the IETF working group chair for the JSContact standard.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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