Locale bringup and barriers for entry

[Mark Davis ☕️ via CLDR-Users]

> Note that the supplemental data is OK for the "cardinal" and "range" type
of categories, but largely failing almost everywhere for the "ordinal" type.

This is due to a misunderstanding of how ordinal works. It is just like
cardinal (plural) in that the translator is responsible for the text, *and*
accounting for gender. The examples given are thus irrelevant.

"Prenez la 1re à droite"

Would be:

one: "Prenez la {number}re à droite"
other: "Prenez la {number}e à droite"

or

one: "Tournez au {number}er feu à droite"
other: "Tournez au {number}e feu à droite"

To reiterate, the handling of grammatical inflections other than
plurals/ordinals is outside the current scope of CLDR, but it is false to
say that CLDR "fails" for ordinals.

I would recommend that before you say "CLDR fails at X", you first ask so
that you can verify that your understanding of CLDR is correct.

Mark


On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 1:21 PM Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> Note that the supplemental data is OK for the "cardinal" and "range" type
> of categories, but largely failing almost everywhere for the "ordinal" type.
> E.g. in French: "Prenez la 1re à droite" (this assumes the feminine
> gender, which is ok for "rue"="street", "avenue", or "sortie"="exit", but
> wrong for "feu"="trafic light" or "stop" which are masculine, as in
> "Tournez au 1er feu à droite", where "1er" and "1re" change depending on
> the gender of the explicit or implicit noun)
>
> Yes ordinals (but also fractions) need derivation by gender (as well as
> grammatical case) including for abbreviated forms (e.g. in French, Italian,
> Spanish, but even in English with inflected leading articles like "a" vs.
> "an", which depends on the numeric value of the ordinal).
>
> And I see little use of these "ordinal" types except in strict isolation
> assuming a nominal use (outside of real sentences where they will be
> inserted) without any relation with the noun (or nominal group) to which
> they refer (note: this noun or nominal group may be outside the curent
> isolated "paragraph", such as a column heading, or other info such as
> resulting ranks in sportive competition for women, vs. the same table for
> men.
>
> Basically this means that CLDR just provides baic data that still needs to
> be tuned and localized again for specific applications, even if this tuning
> is generic. What CLDR can do however is to monitor if there are stable
> applications desiring to interchange their localized data containign gender
> or case differences: if their localisation data is large enough to cover
> enough locales for a significant part of the world and theyr want to
> interoperate, they will create a defacto standard that can be integrated
> (after being proposed to CLDR with enough examplar data and open licencing).
>
> Such applications already exist (notably across wikis, ven if this still
> requires much work to have them cooperate together to stabilize some issues
> and agree to some common formats, and efficicently track the translations
> problems remaining and how to manage the remaining incoherences, as well as
> accepting some deviations for specific uses in more specific pages they
> don't want to break).
>
>
>
> Le mar. 25 sept. 2018 à 13:02, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr> a
> écrit :
>
>>
>>
>> Le mar. 25 sept. 2018 à 11:32, Marcel Schneider <charupdate at orange.fr> a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> On 25/09/18 10:00 Philippe Verdy wrote:
>>> > Plural rules are documented. These are defined as minimal data needed
>>> to start any new locale.
>>>
>>> That seems to be one of those barriers that Steven is now questioning,
>>> or even the main barrier for entry.
>>> For me that would remain a barrier as long as I cannot get clear insight
>>> nor see straightforward structures to fill in.
>>>
>>> See the documentation:
>> http://cldr.unicode.org/index/cldr-spec/plural-rules
>>
>> And the supplemental data which gives a list per locale:
>>
>> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html
>>
>>
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