From srl at icu-project.org  Sat Jan  2 23:40:16 2016
From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 21:40:16 -0800
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
References: <5682ADF2.9000103@bisharat.net>
 <CA+ONODk+iuO0hsfdcd70avY6Pmpa72NuEVZwuG3HDpKbKL91gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDE236E3-EBF0-4781-B48B-75977D1E53BE@icu-project.org>
 <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
Message-ID: <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>

You are welcome, Don.
 Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
-s


> El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net> escribi?:
> 
> Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
> 
> Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list. That exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating system comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on Android. 
> 
> Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is well-placed to discuss their approach.
> 
> Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
> 
> Don
>  
> 
> On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>> ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license information
>> ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here -  <http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/>http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/ <http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/>
>> ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not by language
>> ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a list of all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>  ( generator source here https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827> ) . I did not correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems many, but not all, are actually CLDR locales. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>> 
>> Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>> Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>> Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>> Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA 
>> Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA 
>> Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM 
>> Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH 
>> Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>> Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET 
>> Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ 
>> Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD 
>> Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM 
>> Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ 
>> Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG 
>> Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER 
>> Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY 
>> Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR 
>> Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA 
>> Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO 
>> Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS 
>> Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD 
>> Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN 
>> Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH 
>> Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ 
>> Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>> Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM 
>> Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML 
>> Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>> Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM 
>> Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM 
>> Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ 
>> Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>> Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA 
>> Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG 
>> Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM 
>> Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE 
>> English (Botswana) - en-BW 
>> English (Burundi) - en-BI 
>> English (Cameroon) - en-CM 
>> English (Eritrea) - en-ER 
>> English (Gambia) - en-GM 
>> English (Ghana) - en-GH 
>> English (Kenya) - en-KE 
>> English (Lesotho) - en-LS 
>> English (Liberia) - en-LR 
>> English (Madagascar) - en-MG 
>> English (Malawi) - en-MW 
>> English (Mauritius) - en-MU 
>> English (Namibia) - en-NA 
>> English (Nigeria) - en-NG 
>> English (Rwanda) - en-RW 
>> English (Seychelles) - en-SC 
>> English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL 
>> English (South Africa) - en-ZA 
>> English (South Sudan) - en-SS 
>> English (St. Helena) - en-SH 
>> English (Sudan) - en-SD 
>> English (Swaziland) - en-SZ 
>> English (Tanzania) - en-TZ 
>> English (Uganda) - en-UG 
>> English (Zambia) - en-ZM 
>> English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW 
>> Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH 
>> Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG 
>> Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM 
>> French (Algeria) - fr-DZ 
>> French (Benin) - fr-BJ 
>> French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF 
>> French (Burundi) - fr-BI 
>> French (Cameroon) - fr-CM 
>> French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF 
>> French (Chad) - fr-TD 
>> French (Comoros) - fr-KM 
>> French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG 
>> French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD 
>> French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI 
>> French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ 
>> French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ 
>> French (Gabon) - fr-GA 
>> French (Guinea) - fr-GN 
>> French (Madagascar) - fr-MG 
>> French (Mali) - fr-ML 
>> French (Mauritania) - fr-MR 
>> French (Mauritius) - fr-MU 
>> French (Mayotte) - fr-YT 
>> French (Morocco) - fr-MA 
>> French (Niger) - fr-NE 
>> French (R?union) - fr-RE 
>> French (Rwanda) - fr-RW 
>> French (Senegal) - fr-SN 
>> French (Seychelles) - fr-SC 
>> French (Togo) - fr-TG 
>> French (Tunisia) - fr-TN 
>> Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM 
>> Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN 
>> Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR 
>> Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN 
>> Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>> Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG 
>> Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>> Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>> Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE 
>> Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>> Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>> Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH 
>> Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE 
>> Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG 
>> Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG 
>> Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>> Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN 
>> Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV 
>> Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ 
>> Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM 
>> Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE 
>> Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE 
>> Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>> Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE 
>> Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW 
>> Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML 
>> Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML 
>> Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>> Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>> Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM 
>> Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ 
>> Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO 
>> Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF 
>> Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG 
>> Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD 
>> Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD 
>> Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE 
>> Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE 
>> Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ 
>> Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ 
>> Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ 
>> Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG 
>> Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE 
>> Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ 
>> Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE 
>> Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM 
>> Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU 
>> Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM 
>> Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA 
>> Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM 
>> Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM 
>> Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>> North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW 
>> Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS 
>> Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>> Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG 
>> N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>> Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET 
>> Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE 
>> Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO 
>> Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV 
>> Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW 
>> Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ 
>> Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST 
>> Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ 
>> Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI 
>> Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ 
>> Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>> Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE 
>> Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF 
>> Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ 
>> Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ 
>> Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ 
>> Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW 
>> Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>> Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG 
>> Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ 
>> Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET 
>> Somali (Kenya) - so-KE 
>> Somali (Somalia) - so-SO 
>> Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>> Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>> South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>> Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC 
>> Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA 
>> Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ 
>> Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA 
>> Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD 
>> Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE 
>> Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ 
>> Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG 
>> Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>> Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>> Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA 
>> Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA 
>> Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE 
>> Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE 
>> Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE 
>> Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG 
>> Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>> Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER 
>> Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET 
>> Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>> Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>> Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>> Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>> Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR 
>> Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR 
>> Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>> Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ 
>> Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>> Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>> Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>> Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM 
>> Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ 
>> Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG 
>> Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE 
>> Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>> escribi?:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Those are names of languages available as part of data for CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this data doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR locale; i.e. having all sort of other information (date/time format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here is the language name for Hausa as appearing in data file for German:
>>> 
>>> http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228 <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>> 
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Shervin
>>> 
>>> On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>> Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for its long list of "other languages" (~240 by my estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>> 
>>> The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone languages" fully supported in iOS - is impressive, though looking at some of the 74 African languages* included (by my count) it seems most are not supported beyond calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that some aspects of the list make it appear that it lists what's on CLDR.  However there are some languages one would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic, among others).
>>> 
>>> Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking and methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>> 
>>> Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>> 
>>> Don Osborn
>>> 
>>> * http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html <http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>> 
> 

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From dzo at bisharat.net  Sun Jan  3 23:04:42 2016
From: dzo at bisharat.net (Don Osborn)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 00:04:42 -0500
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>
References: <5682ADF2.9000103@bisharat.net>
 <CA+ONODk+iuO0hsfdcd70avY6Pmpa72NuEVZwuG3HDpKbKL91gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDE236E3-EBF0-4781-B48B-75977D1E53BE@icu-project.org>
 <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
 <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>
Message-ID: <5689FD6A.5070606@bisharat.net>

Basically:
1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it developing if 
the strategy is to encourage apps)

I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help appreciated. Nothing 
urgent, but it looks like something significant, given the length and 
composition of the list.

Don

On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
> You are welcome, Don.
>  Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
> -s
>
>
>> El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net 
>> <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> escribi?:
>>
>> Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>>
>> Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still 
>> digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list. That 
>> exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating system 
>> comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on Android.
>>
>> Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is well-placed to 
>> discuss their approach.
>>
>> Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>> On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>> ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license information
>>> ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here - 
>>> http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/
>>> ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not by language
>>> ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a list of 
>>> all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>>  ( generator source here 
>>> https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 ) . I did not 
>>> correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems many, but 
>>> not all, are actually CLDR locales.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>>>
>>> Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>>> Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>>> Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>>> Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA
>>> Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA
>>> Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM
>>> Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH
>>> Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>>> Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET
>>> Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ
>>> Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD
>>> Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM
>>> Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ
>>> Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG
>>> Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER
>>> Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY
>>> Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR
>>> Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA
>>> Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO
>>> Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS
>>> Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD
>>> Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN
>>> Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH
>>> Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ
>>> Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>>> Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM
>>> Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML
>>> Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>>> Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM
>>> Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM
>>> Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ
>>> Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>>> Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA
>>> Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG
>>> Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM
>>> Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE
>>> English (Botswana) - en-BW
>>> English (Burundi) - en-BI
>>> English (Cameroon) - en-CM
>>> English (Eritrea) - en-ER
>>> English (Gambia) - en-GM
>>> English (Ghana) - en-GH
>>> English (Kenya) - en-KE
>>> English (Lesotho) - en-LS
>>> English (Liberia) - en-LR
>>> English (Madagascar) - en-MG
>>> English (Malawi) - en-MW
>>> English (Mauritius) - en-MU
>>> English (Namibia) - en-NA
>>> English (Nigeria) - en-NG
>>> English (Rwanda) - en-RW
>>> English (Seychelles) - en-SC
>>> English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL
>>> English (South Africa) - en-ZA
>>> English (South Sudan) - en-SS
>>> English (St. Helena) - en-SH
>>> English (Sudan) - en-SD
>>> English (Swaziland) - en-SZ
>>> English (Tanzania) - en-TZ
>>> English (Uganda) - en-UG
>>> English (Zambia) - en-ZM
>>> English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW
>>> Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH
>>> Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG
>>> Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM
>>> French (Algeria) - fr-DZ
>>> French (Benin) - fr-BJ
>>> French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF
>>> French (Burundi) - fr-BI
>>> French (Cameroon) - fr-CM
>>> French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF
>>> French (Chad) - fr-TD
>>> French (Comoros) - fr-KM
>>> French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG
>>> French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD
>>> French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI
>>> French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ
>>> French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ
>>> French (Gabon) - fr-GA
>>> French (Guinea) - fr-GN
>>> French (Madagascar) - fr-MG
>>> French (Mali) - fr-ML
>>> French (Mauritania) - fr-MR
>>> French (Mauritius) - fr-MU
>>> French (Mayotte) - fr-YT
>>> French (Morocco) - fr-MA
>>> French (Niger) - fr-NE
>>> French (R?union) - fr-RE
>>> French (Rwanda) - fr-RW
>>> French (Senegal) - fr-SN
>>> French (Seychelles) - fr-SC
>>> French (Togo) - fr-TG
>>> French (Tunisia) - fr-TN
>>> Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM
>>> Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN
>>> Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR
>>> Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN
>>> Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>>> Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG
>>> Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>>> Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>>> Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE
>>> Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>>> Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>>> Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH
>>> Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE
>>> Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG
>>> Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG
>>> Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>>> Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN
>>> Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV
>>> Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ
>>> Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM
>>> Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE
>>> Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE
>>> Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>>> Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE
>>> Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW
>>> Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML
>>> Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML
>>> Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>>> Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>>> Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM
>>> Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ
>>> Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO
>>> Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF
>>> Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG
>>> Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD
>>> Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD
>>> Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE
>>> Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE
>>> Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ
>>> Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ
>>> Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ
>>> Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG
>>> Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE
>>> Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ
>>> Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE
>>> Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM
>>> Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU
>>> Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM
>>> Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA
>>> Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM
>>> Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM
>>> Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>>> North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW
>>> Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS
>>> Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>>> Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG
>>> N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>>> Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET
>>> Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE
>>> Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO
>>> Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV
>>> Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW
>>> Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ
>>> Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST
>>> Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ
>>> Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI
>>> Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ
>>> Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>>> Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE
>>> Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF
>>> Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ
>>> Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ
>>> Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ
>>> Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW
>>> Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>>> Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG
>>> Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ
>>> Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET
>>> Somali (Kenya) - so-KE
>>> Somali (Somalia) - so-SO
>>> Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>>> Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>>> South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>>> Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC
>>> Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA
>>> Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ
>>> Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA
>>> Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD
>>> Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE
>>> Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ
>>> Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG
>>> Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>>> Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>>> Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA
>>> Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA
>>> Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE
>>> Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE
>>> Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE
>>> Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG
>>> Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>>> Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER
>>> Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET
>>> Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>>> Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>>> Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>>> Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>>> Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR
>>> Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR
>>> Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>>> Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ
>>> Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>>> Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>>> Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>>> Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM
>>> Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ
>>> Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG
>>> Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE
>>> Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar 
>>>> <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>> escribi?:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Those are names of languages available as part of data for 
>>>> CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this data 
>>>> doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR locale; i.e. 
>>>> having all sort of other information (date/time format, numbers, 
>>>> etc.) beyond these names. Here is the language name for Hausa as 
>>>> appearing in data file for German:
>>>>
>>>> http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Shervin
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" <dzo at bisharat.net 
>>>> <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for its
>>>>     long list of "other languages" (~240 by my estimation) on
>>>>     iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is off-topic (replies
>>>>     offline probably best).
>>>>
>>>>     The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone languages"
>>>>     fully supported in iOS - is impressive, though looking at some
>>>>     of the 74 African languages* included (by my count) it seems
>>>>     most are not supported beyond calendars. Charles Riley
>>>>     suggested offline that some aspects of the list make it appear
>>>>     that it lists what's on CLDR. However there are some languages
>>>>     one would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic,
>>>>     among others).
>>>>
>>>>     Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking and
>>>>     methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>>>
>>>>     Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>>>
>>>>     Don Osborn
>>>>
>>>>     *
>>>>     http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>     CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>
>>
>

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From verdy_p at wanadoo.fr  Mon Jan  4 07:00:35 2016
From: verdy_p at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Verdy)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:00:35 +0100
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <5689FD6A.5070606@bisharat.net>
References: <5682ADF2.9000103@bisharat.net>
 <CA+ONODk+iuO0hsfdcd70avY6Pmpa72NuEVZwuG3HDpKbKL91gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDE236E3-EBF0-4781-B48B-75977D1E53BE@icu-project.org>
 <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
 <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>
 <5689FD6A.5070606@bisharat.net>
Message-ID: <CAGa7JC2QhuU1_=1hJD4LFbCQPu_0cnhVHA4pM+2kEB_ULzvBtQ@mail.gmail.com>

I just wonder if Apple really chose those languages. They may have just
searched about local demands and usage and thought it would be useful for
its market to extend the list to everything that is available, using
various local sources to define what was the minimum needed to support
these locales.
However, the reviewal process for the data mayh have been minimalist, and
there would be corrections later in various aspects. Apple took its
responsability and did not wait for a formal international agreement or
standardization process. It could do it, and did it. Apple will correct
errors later by listening its users and bug reports on its own developement
platform and services.

2016-01-04 6:04 GMT+01:00 Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net>:

> Basically:
> 1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
> 2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it developing if the
> strategy is to encourage apps)
>
> I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help appreciated. Nothing
> urgent, but it looks like something significant, given the length and
> composition of the list.
>
> Don
>
>
> On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>
> You are welcome, Don.
>  Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
> -s
>
>
> El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net> escribi?:
>
> Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>
> Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still digesting.
> Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list. That exercise would be
> more rewarding in a cross-operating system comparison - if there were a
> clear list of what's on Android.
>
> Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is well-placed to
> discuss their approach.
>
> Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>
> Don
>
>
> On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>
> ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license information
> ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here -
> http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/
> ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not by language
> ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a list of all
> locales that are in Africa (002):
>  ( generator source here
> <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827>
> https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 ) . I did not
> correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems many, but not all,
> are actually CLDR locales.
>
>
>
> So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>
> Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
> Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
> Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
> Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA
> Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA
> Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM
> Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH
> Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
> Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET
> Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ
> Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD
> Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM
> Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ
> Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG
> Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER
> Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY
> Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR
> Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA
> Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO
> Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS
> Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD
> Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN
> Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH
> Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ
> Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
> Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM
> Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML
> Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
> Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM
> Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM
> Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ
> Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
> Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA
> Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG
> Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM
> Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE
> English (Botswana) - en-BW
> English (Burundi) - en-BI
> English (Cameroon) - en-CM
> English (Eritrea) - en-ER
> English (Gambia) - en-GM
> English (Ghana) - en-GH
> English (Kenya) - en-KE
> English (Lesotho) - en-LS
> English (Liberia) - en-LR
> English (Madagascar) - en-MG
> English (Malawi) - en-MW
> English (Mauritius) - en-MU
> English (Namibia) - en-NA
> English (Nigeria) - en-NG
> English (Rwanda) - en-RW
> English (Seychelles) - en-SC
> English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL
> English (South Africa) - en-ZA
> English (South Sudan) - en-SS
> English (St. Helena) - en-SH
> English (Sudan) - en-SD
> English (Swaziland) - en-SZ
> English (Tanzania) - en-TZ
> English (Uganda) - en-UG
> English (Zambia) - en-ZM
> English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW
> Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH
> Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG
> Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM
> French (Algeria) - fr-DZ
> French (Benin) - fr-BJ
> French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF
> French (Burundi) - fr-BI
> French (Cameroon) - fr-CM
> French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF
> French (Chad) - fr-TD
> French (Comoros) - fr-KM
> French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG
> French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD
> French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI
> French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ
> French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ
> French (Gabon) - fr-GA
> French (Guinea) - fr-GN
> French (Madagascar) - fr-MG
> French (Mali) - fr-ML
> French (Mauritania) - fr-MR
> French (Mauritius) - fr-MU
> French (Mayotte) - fr-YT
> French (Morocco) - fr-MA
> French (Niger) - fr-NE
> French (R?union) - fr-RE
> French (Rwanda) - fr-RW
> French (Senegal) - fr-SN
> French (Seychelles) - fr-SC
> French (Togo) - fr-TG
> French (Tunisia) - fr-TN
> Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM
> Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN
> Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR
> Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN
> Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
> Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG
> Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
> Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
> Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE
> Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
> Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
> Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH
> Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE
> Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG
> Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG
> Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
> Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN
> Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV
> Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ
> Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM
> Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE
> Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE
> Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
> Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE
> Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW
> Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML
> Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML
> Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
> Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
> Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM
> Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ
> Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO
> Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF
> Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG
> Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD
> Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD
> Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE
> Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE
> Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ
> Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ
> Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ
> Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG
> Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE
> Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ
> Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE
> Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM
> Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU
> Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM
> Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA
> Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM
> Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM
> Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
> North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW
> Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS
> Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
> Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG
> N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
> Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET
> Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE
> Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO
> Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV
> Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW
> Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ
> Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST
> Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ
> Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI
> Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ
> Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
> Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE
> Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF
> Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ
> Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ
> Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ
> Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW
> Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
> Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG
> Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ
> Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET
> Somali (Kenya) - so-KE
> Somali (Somalia) - so-SO
> Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
> Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
> South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
> Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC
> Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA
> Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ
> Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA
> Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD
> Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE
> Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ
> Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG
> Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
> Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
> Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA
> Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA
> Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE
> Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE
> Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE
> Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG
> Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
> Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER
> Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET
> Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
> Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
> Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
> Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
> Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR
> Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR
> Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
> Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ
> Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
> Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
> Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
> Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM
> Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ
> Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG
> Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE
> Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA
>
>
>
> El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar <shervinafshar at gmail.com>
> escribi?:
>
> Hello,
>
> Those are names of languages available as part of data for CLDR-supported
> locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this data doesn't necessarily mean
> that that language is a CLDR locale; i.e. having all sort of other
> information (date/time format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here is
> the language name for Hausa as appearing in data file for German:
>
> <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>
> http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Best Regards,
> Shervin
> On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" < <dzo at bisharat.net>dzo at bisharat.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for its long list of
>> "other languages" (~240 by my estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that
>> this is off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>
>> The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone languages" fully
>> supported in iOS - is impressive, though looking at some of the 74 African
>> languages* included (by my count) it seems most are not supported beyond
>> calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that some aspects of the list
>> make it appear that it lists what's on CLDR.  However there are some
>> languages one would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic, among
>> others).
>>
>> Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking and methods on
>> this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>
>> Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>
>> Don Osborn
>>
>> *
>> http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
>
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From chrish at apple.com  Mon Jan  4 11:48:37 2016
From: chrish at apple.com (Chris Hansten)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 09:48:37 -0800
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <CAGa7JC2QhuU1_=1hJD4LFbCQPu_0cnhVHA4pM+2kEB_ULzvBtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5682ADF2.9000103@bisharat.net>
 <CA+ONODk+iuO0hsfdcd70avY6Pmpa72NuEVZwuG3HDpKbKL91gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDE236E3-EBF0-4781-B48B-75977D1E53BE@icu-project.org>
 <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
 <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>
 <5689FD6A.5070606@bisharat.net>
 <CAGa7JC2QhuU1_=1hJD4LFbCQPu_0cnhVHA4pM+2kEB_ULzvBtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7264C15-9A4D-4E12-8591-50C7AE8EC9C0@apple.com>

Hi Don,

When you asked the original question, I assume you are asking about the preferred language order setting. Correct?

?chris

> On Jan 4, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
> I just wonder if Apple really chose those languages. They may have just searched about local demands and usage and thought it would be useful for its market to extend the list to everything that is available, using various local sources to define what was the minimum needed to support these locales.
> However, the reviewal process for the data mayh have been minimalist, and there would be corrections later in various aspects. Apple took its responsability and did not wait for a formal international agreement or standardization process. It could do it, and did it. Apple will correct errors later by listening its users and bug reports on its own developement platform and services.
> 
> 2016-01-04 6:04 GMT+01:00 Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>>:
> Basically:
> 1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
> 2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it developing if the strategy is to encourage apps)
> 
> I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help appreciated. Nothing urgent, but it looks like something significant, given the length and composition of the list.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>> You are welcome, Don.
>>  Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
>> -s
>> 
>> 
>>> El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> escribi?:
>>> 
>>> Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>>> 
>>> Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list. That exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating system comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on Android. 
>>> 
>>> Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is well-placed to discuss their approach.
>>> 
>>> Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>>> 
>>> Don
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>> ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license information
>>>> ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here - http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/ <http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/>
>>>> ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not by language
>>>> ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a list of all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>>>  ( generator source here  <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827>https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827> ) . I did not correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems many, but not all, are actually CLDR locales. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>>>> 
>>>> Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>>>> Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>>>> Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>>>> Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA 
>>>> Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA 
>>>> Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM 
>>>> Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH 
>>>> Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>>>> Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET 
>>>> Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ 
>>>> Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD 
>>>> Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM 
>>>> Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ 
>>>> Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG 
>>>> Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER 
>>>> Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY 
>>>> Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR 
>>>> Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA 
>>>> Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO 
>>>> Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS 
>>>> Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD 
>>>> Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN 
>>>> Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH 
>>>> Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ 
>>>> Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>>>> Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM 
>>>> Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML 
>>>> Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>>>> Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM 
>>>> Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM 
>>>> Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ 
>>>> Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>>>> Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA 
>>>> Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG 
>>>> Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM 
>>>> Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE 
>>>> English (Botswana) - en-BW 
>>>> English (Burundi) - en-BI 
>>>> English (Cameroon) - en-CM 
>>>> English (Eritrea) - en-ER 
>>>> English (Gambia) - en-GM 
>>>> English (Ghana) - en-GH 
>>>> English (Kenya) - en-KE 
>>>> English (Lesotho) - en-LS 
>>>> English (Liberia) - en-LR 
>>>> English (Madagascar) - en-MG 
>>>> English (Malawi) - en-MW 
>>>> English (Mauritius) - en-MU 
>>>> English (Namibia) - en-NA 
>>>> English (Nigeria) - en-NG 
>>>> English (Rwanda) - en-RW 
>>>> English (Seychelles) - en-SC 
>>>> English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL 
>>>> English (South Africa) - en-ZA 
>>>> English (South Sudan) - en-SS 
>>>> English (St. Helena) - en-SH 
>>>> English (Sudan) - en-SD 
>>>> English (Swaziland) - en-SZ 
>>>> English (Tanzania) - en-TZ 
>>>> English (Uganda) - en-UG 
>>>> English (Zambia) - en-ZM 
>>>> English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW 
>>>> Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH 
>>>> Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG 
>>>> Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM 
>>>> French (Algeria) - fr-DZ 
>>>> French (Benin) - fr-BJ 
>>>> French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF 
>>>> French (Burundi) - fr-BI 
>>>> French (Cameroon) - fr-CM 
>>>> French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF 
>>>> French (Chad) - fr-TD 
>>>> French (Comoros) - fr-KM 
>>>> French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG 
>>>> French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD 
>>>> French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI 
>>>> French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ 
>>>> French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ 
>>>> French (Gabon) - fr-GA 
>>>> French (Guinea) - fr-GN 
>>>> French (Madagascar) - fr-MG 
>>>> French (Mali) - fr-ML 
>>>> French (Mauritania) - fr-MR 
>>>> French (Mauritius) - fr-MU 
>>>> French (Mayotte) - fr-YT 
>>>> French (Morocco) - fr-MA 
>>>> French (Niger) - fr-NE 
>>>> French (R?union) - fr-RE 
>>>> French (Rwanda) - fr-RW 
>>>> French (Senegal) - fr-SN 
>>>> French (Seychelles) - fr-SC 
>>>> French (Togo) - fr-TG 
>>>> French (Tunisia) - fr-TN 
>>>> Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM 
>>>> Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN 
>>>> Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR 
>>>> Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN 
>>>> Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>>>> Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG 
>>>> Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>>>> Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>>>> Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE 
>>>> Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>>>> Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>>>> Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH 
>>>> Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE 
>>>> Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG 
>>>> Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG 
>>>> Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>>>> Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN 
>>>> Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV 
>>>> Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ 
>>>> Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM 
>>>> Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE 
>>>> Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE 
>>>> Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>>>> Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE 
>>>> Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW 
>>>> Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML 
>>>> Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML 
>>>> Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>>>> Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>>>> Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM 
>>>> Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ 
>>>> Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO 
>>>> Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF 
>>>> Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG 
>>>> Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD 
>>>> Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD 
>>>> Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE 
>>>> Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE 
>>>> Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ 
>>>> Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ 
>>>> Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ 
>>>> Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG 
>>>> Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE 
>>>> Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ 
>>>> Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE 
>>>> Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM 
>>>> Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU 
>>>> Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM 
>>>> Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA 
>>>> Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM 
>>>> Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM 
>>>> Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>>>> North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW 
>>>> Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS 
>>>> Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>>>> Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG 
>>>> N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>>>> Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET 
>>>> Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE 
>>>> Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO 
>>>> Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV 
>>>> Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW 
>>>> Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ 
>>>> Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST 
>>>> Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ 
>>>> Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI 
>>>> Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ 
>>>> Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>>>> Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE 
>>>> Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF 
>>>> Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ 
>>>> Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ 
>>>> Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ 
>>>> Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW 
>>>> Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>>>> Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG 
>>>> Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ 
>>>> Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET 
>>>> Somali (Kenya) - so-KE 
>>>> Somali (Somalia) - so-SO 
>>>> Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>>>> Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>>>> South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>>>> Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC 
>>>> Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA 
>>>> Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ 
>>>> Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA 
>>>> Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD 
>>>> Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE 
>>>> Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ 
>>>> Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG 
>>>> Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>>>> Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>>>> Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA 
>>>> Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA 
>>>> Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE 
>>>> Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE 
>>>> Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE 
>>>> Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG 
>>>> Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>>>> Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER 
>>>> Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET 
>>>> Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>>>> Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>>>> Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>>>> Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>>>> Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR 
>>>> Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR 
>>>> Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>>>> Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ 
>>>> Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>>>> Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>>>> Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>>>> Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM 
>>>> Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ 
>>>> Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG 
>>>> Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE 
>>>> Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>> escribi?:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Those are names of languages available as part of data for CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this data doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR locale; i.e. having all sort of other information (date/time format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here is the language name for Hausa as appearing in data file for German:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228 <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Shervin
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" < <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for its long list of "other languages" (~240 by my estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>>>> 
>>>>> The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone languages" fully supported in iOS - is impressive, though looking at some of the 74 African languages* included (by my count) it seems most are not supported beyond calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that some aspects of the list make it appear that it lists what's on CLDR.  However there are some languages one would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic, among others).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking and methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Don Osborn
>>>>> 
>>>>> * http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html <http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From srl at icu-project.org  Mon Jan  4 12:31:12 2016
From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 10:31:12 -0800
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <B7264C15-9A4D-4E12-8591-50C7AE8EC9C0@apple.com>
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 <B7264C15-9A4D-4E12-8591-50C7AE8EC9C0@apple.com>
Message-ID: <105E5DE0-171F-449F-A707-FF33C83536BE@icu-project.org>

That?s my assumption. This list doesn?t show up as the ?iPhone language?.

 Looking at the context and functionality, it?s a list of languages that can be chosen to request application or website content - analogous to the browser?s language chooser. If you choose Shimaore (Comoran) and an application is written to have content for such a language (BCP47 ID ?swb?)  the user will see this content. The data is certainly from CLDR, possibly with a few autonyms supplemented ( ?Shimaore? for swb?).

 Some time ago, it seems apps were opened up to support bcp47 codes instead of a more restricted list (?English? ?Spanish? etc.) I don?t think there?s a lot of news here other than that the selector continues to expand. This doesn?t imply any additional data other than the autonym.

 When you pursue other avenues, please consider how to improve CLDR coverage for these languages, if you aren?t already considering so of course.

Steven



> El ene 4, 2016, a las 9:48 AM, Chris Hansten <chrish at apple.com> escribi?:
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> When you asked the original question, I assume you are asking about the preferred language order setting. Correct?
> 
> ?chris
> 
>> On Jan 4, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>> 
>> I just wonder if Apple really chose those languages. They may have just searched about local demands and usage and thought it would be useful for its market to extend the list to everything that is available, using various local sources to define what was the minimum needed to support these locales.
>> However, the reviewal process for the data mayh have been minimalist, and there would be corrections later in various aspects. Apple took its responsability and did not wait for a formal international agreement or standardization process. It could do it, and did it. Apple will correct errors later by listening its users and bug reports on its own developement platform and services.
>> 
>> 2016-01-04 6:04 GMT+01:00 Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>>:
>> Basically:
>> 1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
>> 2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it developing if the strategy is to encourage apps)
>> 
>> I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help appreciated. Nothing urgent, but it looks like something significant, given the length and composition of the list.
>> 
>> Don
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>> You are welcome, Don.
>>>  Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
>>> -s
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> escribi?:
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>>>> 
>>>> Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list. That exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating system comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on Android. 
>>>> 
>>>> Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is well-placed to discuss their approach.
>>>> 
>>>> Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>>>> 
>>>> Don
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>>> ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license information
>>>>> ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here - http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/ <http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/>
>>>>> ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not by language
>>>>> ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a list of all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>>>>  ( generator source here  <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827>https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827> ) . I did not correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems many, but not all, are actually CLDR locales. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>>>>> Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>>>>> Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>>>>> Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA 
>>>>> Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA 
>>>>> Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM 
>>>>> Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH 
>>>>> Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>>>>> Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET 
>>>>> Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ 
>>>>> Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD 
>>>>> Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM 
>>>>> Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ 
>>>>> Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG 
>>>>> Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER 
>>>>> Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY 
>>>>> Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR 
>>>>> Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA 
>>>>> Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO 
>>>>> Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS 
>>>>> Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD 
>>>>> Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN 
>>>>> Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH 
>>>>> Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ 
>>>>> Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>>>>> Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM 
>>>>> Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML 
>>>>> Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>>>>> Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM 
>>>>> Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM 
>>>>> Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ 
>>>>> Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>>>>> Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA 
>>>>> Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG 
>>>>> Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM 
>>>>> Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE 
>>>>> English (Botswana) - en-BW 
>>>>> English (Burundi) - en-BI 
>>>>> English (Cameroon) - en-CM 
>>>>> English (Eritrea) - en-ER 
>>>>> English (Gambia) - en-GM 
>>>>> English (Ghana) - en-GH 
>>>>> English (Kenya) - en-KE 
>>>>> English (Lesotho) - en-LS 
>>>>> English (Liberia) - en-LR 
>>>>> English (Madagascar) - en-MG 
>>>>> English (Malawi) - en-MW 
>>>>> English (Mauritius) - en-MU 
>>>>> English (Namibia) - en-NA 
>>>>> English (Nigeria) - en-NG 
>>>>> English (Rwanda) - en-RW 
>>>>> English (Seychelles) - en-SC 
>>>>> English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL 
>>>>> English (South Africa) - en-ZA 
>>>>> English (South Sudan) - en-SS 
>>>>> English (St. Helena) - en-SH 
>>>>> English (Sudan) - en-SD 
>>>>> English (Swaziland) - en-SZ 
>>>>> English (Tanzania) - en-TZ 
>>>>> English (Uganda) - en-UG 
>>>>> English (Zambia) - en-ZM 
>>>>> English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW 
>>>>> Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH 
>>>>> Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG 
>>>>> Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM 
>>>>> French (Algeria) - fr-DZ 
>>>>> French (Benin) - fr-BJ 
>>>>> French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF 
>>>>> French (Burundi) - fr-BI 
>>>>> French (Cameroon) - fr-CM 
>>>>> French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF 
>>>>> French (Chad) - fr-TD 
>>>>> French (Comoros) - fr-KM 
>>>>> French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG 
>>>>> French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD 
>>>>> French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI 
>>>>> French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ 
>>>>> French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ 
>>>>> French (Gabon) - fr-GA 
>>>>> French (Guinea) - fr-GN 
>>>>> French (Madagascar) - fr-MG 
>>>>> French (Mali) - fr-ML 
>>>>> French (Mauritania) - fr-MR 
>>>>> French (Mauritius) - fr-MU 
>>>>> French (Mayotte) - fr-YT 
>>>>> French (Morocco) - fr-MA 
>>>>> French (Niger) - fr-NE 
>>>>> French (R?union) - fr-RE 
>>>>> French (Rwanda) - fr-RW 
>>>>> French (Senegal) - fr-SN 
>>>>> French (Seychelles) - fr-SC 
>>>>> French (Togo) - fr-TG 
>>>>> French (Tunisia) - fr-TN 
>>>>> Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM 
>>>>> Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN 
>>>>> Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR 
>>>>> Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN 
>>>>> Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>>>>> Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG 
>>>>> Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>>>>> Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>>>>> Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE 
>>>>> Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>>>>> Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>>>>> Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH 
>>>>> Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE 
>>>>> Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG 
>>>>> Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG 
>>>>> Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>>>>> Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN 
>>>>> Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV 
>>>>> Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ 
>>>>> Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM 
>>>>> Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE 
>>>>> Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE 
>>>>> Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>>>>> Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE 
>>>>> Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW 
>>>>> Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML 
>>>>> Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML 
>>>>> Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>>>>> Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>>>>> Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM 
>>>>> Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ 
>>>>> Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO 
>>>>> Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF 
>>>>> Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG 
>>>>> Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD 
>>>>> Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD 
>>>>> Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE 
>>>>> Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE 
>>>>> Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ 
>>>>> Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ 
>>>>> Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ 
>>>>> Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG 
>>>>> Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE 
>>>>> Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ 
>>>>> Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE 
>>>>> Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM 
>>>>> Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU 
>>>>> Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM 
>>>>> Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA 
>>>>> Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM 
>>>>> Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM 
>>>>> Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW 
>>>>> Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS 
>>>>> Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>>>>> Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG 
>>>>> N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>>>>> Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET 
>>>>> Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE 
>>>>> Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO 
>>>>> Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV 
>>>>> Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW 
>>>>> Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ 
>>>>> Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST 
>>>>> Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ 
>>>>> Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI 
>>>>> Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ 
>>>>> Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>>>>> Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE 
>>>>> Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF 
>>>>> Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ 
>>>>> Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ 
>>>>> Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ 
>>>>> Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW 
>>>>> Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>>>>> Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG 
>>>>> Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ 
>>>>> Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET 
>>>>> Somali (Kenya) - so-KE 
>>>>> Somali (Somalia) - so-SO 
>>>>> Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>>>>> Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC 
>>>>> Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA 
>>>>> Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ 
>>>>> Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA 
>>>>> Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD 
>>>>> Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE 
>>>>> Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ 
>>>>> Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG 
>>>>> Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>>>>> Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA 
>>>>> Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA 
>>>>> Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE 
>>>>> Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE 
>>>>> Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE 
>>>>> Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG 
>>>>> Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>>>>> Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER 
>>>>> Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET 
>>>>> Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>>>>> Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>>>>> Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR 
>>>>> Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR 
>>>>> Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ 
>>>>> Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>>>>> Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>>>>> Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>>>>> Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM 
>>>>> Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ 
>>>>> Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG 
>>>>> Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE 
>>>>> Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>> escribi?:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Those are names of languages available as part of data for CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this data doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR locale; i.e. having all sort of other information (date/time format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here is the language name for Hausa as appearing in data file for German:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228 <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>
>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>> Shervin
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" < <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for its long list of "other languages" (~240 by my estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone languages" fully supported in iOS - is impressive, though looking at some of the 74 African languages* included (by my count) it seems most are not supported beyond calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that some aspects of the list make it appear that it lists what's on CLDR.  However there are some languages one would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic, among others).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking and methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Don Osborn
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html <http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
> 

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From dzo at bisharat.net  Tue Jan  5 00:08:30 2016
From: dzo at bisharat.net (Don Osborn)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 01:08:30 -0500
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <105E5DE0-171F-449F-A707-FF33C83536BE@icu-project.org>
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Message-ID: <568B5DDE.705@bisharat.net>

Chris, Steven, Correct, these languages are not "iPhone languages" but 
show up in the long list below iPhone languages, under as I recall 
"other languages" (don't have an image with the heading to refer to, and 
my home iPhone experts have gone to China).

It was not clear to this non-iPhone user what the list of languages 
represented - alternative interface languages or as you suggest Steven, 
for application or website language. The Apple store folks didn't have 
more info, though suggested that maybe these languages were supported to 
one or another degree by third-party apps.

Philippe, My assumption is that at some level someone had to choose to 
list certain languages, maybe as you suggest based on the markets they 
cover. (Apple apparently has no carrier support in Ethiopia, and Amharic 
isn't on the list, as far as I could see.) Also I'd imagine Apple would 
have a pretty good sense of what might come of listing certain languages 
- or could it really be just to see what develops?

Don

On 1/4/2016 1:31 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
> That?s my assumption. This list doesn?t show up as the ?iPhone language?.
>
>  Looking at the context and functionality, it?s a list of languages 
> that can be chosen to request application or website content - 
> analogous to the browser?s language chooser. If you choose Shimaore 
> (Comoran) and an application is written to have content for such a 
> language (BCP47 ID ?swb?)  the user will see this content. The data is 
> certainly from CLDR, possibly with a few autonyms supplemented ( 
> ?Shimaore? for swb?).
>
>  Some time ago, it seems apps were opened up to support bcp47 codes 
> instead of a more restricted list (?English? ?Spanish? etc.) I don?t 
> think there?s a lot of news here other than that the selector 
> continues to expand. This doesn?t imply any additional data other than 
> the autonym.
>
>  When you pursue other avenues, please consider how to improve CLDR 
> coverage for these languages, if you aren?t already considering so of 
> course.
>
> Steven
>
>
>
>> El ene 4, 2016, a las 9:48 AM, Chris Hansten <chrish at apple.com 
>> <mailto:chrish at apple.com>> escribi?:
>>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> When you asked the original question, I assume you are asking about 
>> the preferred language order setting. Correct?
>>
>> ?chris
>>
>>> On Jan 4, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr 
>>> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I just wonder if Apple really chose those languages. They may have 
>>> just searched about local demands and usage and thought it would be 
>>> useful for its market to extend the list to everything that is 
>>> available, using various local sources to define what was the 
>>> minimum needed to support these locales.
>>> However, the reviewal process for the data mayh have been 
>>> minimalist, and there would be corrections later in various aspects. 
>>> Apple took its responsability and did not wait for a formal 
>>> international agreement or standardization process. It could do it, 
>>> and did it. Apple will correct errors later by listening its users 
>>> and bug reports on its own developement platform and services.
>>>
>>> 2016-01-04 6:04 GMT+01:00 Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net 
>>> <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>>:
>>>
>>>     Basically:
>>>     1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
>>>     2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it
>>>     developing if the strategy is to encourage apps)
>>>
>>>     I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help appreciated.
>>>     Nothing urgent, but it looks like something significant, given
>>>     the length and composition of the list.
>>>
>>>     Don
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>>     You are welcome, Don.
>>>>      Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
>>>>     -s
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net
>>>>>     <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> escribi?:
>>>>>
>>>>>     Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still
>>>>>     digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list.
>>>>>     That exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating
>>>>>     system comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on
>>>>>     Android.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is
>>>>>     well-placed to discuss their approach.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>>>>>
>>>>>     Don
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>>>>     ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license
>>>>>>     information
>>>>>>     ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here -
>>>>>>     http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/
>>>>>>     ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not
>>>>>>     by language
>>>>>>     ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a
>>>>>>     list of all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>>>>>      ( generator source here
>>>>>>     https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 ) . I did
>>>>>>     not correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems
>>>>>>     many, but not all, are actually CLDR locales.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>>>>>>     Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>     Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>     Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA
>>>>>>     Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA
>>>>>>     Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM
>>>>>>     Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH
>>>>>>     Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>>>>>>     Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET
>>>>>>     Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ
>>>>>>     Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD
>>>>>>     Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM
>>>>>>     Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ
>>>>>>     Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG
>>>>>>     Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER
>>>>>>     Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY
>>>>>>     Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR
>>>>>>     Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA
>>>>>>     Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO
>>>>>>     Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS
>>>>>>     Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD
>>>>>>     Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN
>>>>>>     Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH
>>>>>>     Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ
>>>>>>     Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>     Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM
>>>>>>     Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML
>>>>>>     Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>>>>>>     Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM
>>>>>>     Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM
>>>>>>     Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ
>>>>>>     Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>     Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA
>>>>>>     Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG
>>>>>>     Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM
>>>>>>     Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE
>>>>>>     English (Botswana) - en-BW
>>>>>>     English (Burundi) - en-BI
>>>>>>     English (Cameroon) - en-CM
>>>>>>     English (Eritrea) - en-ER
>>>>>>     English (Gambia) - en-GM
>>>>>>     English (Ghana) - en-GH
>>>>>>     English (Kenya) - en-KE
>>>>>>     English (Lesotho) - en-LS
>>>>>>     English (Liberia) - en-LR
>>>>>>     English (Madagascar) - en-MG
>>>>>>     English (Malawi) - en-MW
>>>>>>     English (Mauritius) - en-MU
>>>>>>     English (Namibia) - en-NA
>>>>>>     English (Nigeria) - en-NG
>>>>>>     English (Rwanda) - en-RW
>>>>>>     English (Seychelles) - en-SC
>>>>>>     English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL
>>>>>>     English (South Africa) - en-ZA
>>>>>>     English (South Sudan) - en-SS
>>>>>>     English (St. Helena) - en-SH
>>>>>>     English (Sudan) - en-SD
>>>>>>     English (Swaziland) - en-SZ
>>>>>>     English (Tanzania) - en-TZ
>>>>>>     English (Uganda) - en-UG
>>>>>>     English (Zambia) - en-ZM
>>>>>>     English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW
>>>>>>     Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH
>>>>>>     Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG
>>>>>>     Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM
>>>>>>     French (Algeria) - fr-DZ
>>>>>>     French (Benin) - fr-BJ
>>>>>>     French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF
>>>>>>     French (Burundi) - fr-BI
>>>>>>     French (Cameroon) - fr-CM
>>>>>>     French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF
>>>>>>     French (Chad) - fr-TD
>>>>>>     French (Comoros) - fr-KM
>>>>>>     French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG
>>>>>>     French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD
>>>>>>     French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI
>>>>>>     French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ
>>>>>>     French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ
>>>>>>     French (Gabon) - fr-GA
>>>>>>     French (Guinea) - fr-GN
>>>>>>     French (Madagascar) - fr-MG
>>>>>>     French (Mali) - fr-ML
>>>>>>     French (Mauritania) - fr-MR
>>>>>>     French (Mauritius) - fr-MU
>>>>>>     French (Mayotte) - fr-YT
>>>>>>     French (Morocco) - fr-MA
>>>>>>     French (Niger) - fr-NE
>>>>>>     French (R?union) - fr-RE
>>>>>>     French (Rwanda) - fr-RW
>>>>>>     French (Senegal) - fr-SN
>>>>>>     French (Seychelles) - fr-SC
>>>>>>     French (Togo) - fr-TG
>>>>>>     French (Tunisia) - fr-TN
>>>>>>     Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM
>>>>>>     Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN
>>>>>>     Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR
>>>>>>     Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN
>>>>>>     Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>>>>>>     Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG
>>>>>>     Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>     Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>     Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE
>>>>>>     Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>     Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>>>>>>     Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH
>>>>>>     Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE
>>>>>>     Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG
>>>>>>     Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG
>>>>>>     Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>     Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN
>>>>>>     Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV
>>>>>>     Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ
>>>>>>     Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM
>>>>>>     Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE
>>>>>>     Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE
>>>>>>     Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>>>>>>     Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE
>>>>>>     Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW
>>>>>>     Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML
>>>>>>     Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML
>>>>>>     Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>>>>>>     Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>>>>>>     Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM
>>>>>>     Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ
>>>>>>     Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO
>>>>>>     Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF
>>>>>>     Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG
>>>>>>     Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD
>>>>>>     Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD
>>>>>>     Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE
>>>>>>     Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE
>>>>>>     Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ
>>>>>>     Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ
>>>>>>     Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ
>>>>>>     Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG
>>>>>>     Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE
>>>>>>     Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ
>>>>>>     Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE
>>>>>>     Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM
>>>>>>     Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU
>>>>>>     Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM
>>>>>>     Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA
>>>>>>     Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM
>>>>>>     Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM
>>>>>>     Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW
>>>>>>     Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS
>>>>>>     Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>>>>>>     Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG
>>>>>>     N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>>>>>>     Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET
>>>>>>     Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE
>>>>>>     Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO
>>>>>>     Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV
>>>>>>     Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW
>>>>>>     Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ
>>>>>>     Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST
>>>>>>     Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ
>>>>>>     Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI
>>>>>>     Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ
>>>>>>     Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>     Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE
>>>>>>     Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF
>>>>>>     Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ
>>>>>>     Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ
>>>>>>     Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ
>>>>>>     Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW
>>>>>>     Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>     Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG
>>>>>>     Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ
>>>>>>     Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET
>>>>>>     Somali (Kenya) - so-KE
>>>>>>     Somali (Somalia) - so-SO
>>>>>>     Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>>>>>>     Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC
>>>>>>     Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA
>>>>>>     Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ
>>>>>>     Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA
>>>>>>     Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD
>>>>>>     Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE
>>>>>>     Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ
>>>>>>     Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG
>>>>>>     Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>>>>>>     Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA
>>>>>>     Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA
>>>>>>     Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE
>>>>>>     Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE
>>>>>>     Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE
>>>>>>     Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG
>>>>>>     Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>     Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER
>>>>>>     Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET
>>>>>>     Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>>>>>>     Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>     Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR
>>>>>>     Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR
>>>>>>     Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ
>>>>>>     Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>     Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>>>>>>     Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>     Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM
>>>>>>     Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ
>>>>>>     Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG
>>>>>>     Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE
>>>>>>     Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar
>>>>>>>     <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>     escribi?:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Those are names of languages available as part of data for
>>>>>>>     CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this
>>>>>>>     data doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR
>>>>>>>     locale; i.e. having all sort of other information (date/time
>>>>>>>     format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here is the
>>>>>>>     language name for Hausa as appearing in data file for German:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Best Regards,
>>>>>>>     Shervin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" <dzo at bisharat.net
>>>>>>>     <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for
>>>>>>>         its long list of "other languages" (~240 by my
>>>>>>>         estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is
>>>>>>>         off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone
>>>>>>>         languages" fully supported in iOS - is impressive,
>>>>>>>         though looking at some of the 74 African languages*
>>>>>>>         included (by my count) it seems most are not supported
>>>>>>>         beyond calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that
>>>>>>>         some aspects of the list make it appear that it lists
>>>>>>>         what's on CLDR.  However there are some languages one
>>>>>>>         would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic,
>>>>>>>         among others).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking
>>>>>>>         and methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Don Osborn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         *
>>>>>>>         http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html
>>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>         CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>>>         CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>>>         http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>>>     CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>>>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>     CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
>

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From chrish at apple.com  Tue Jan  5 02:33:40 2016
From: chrish at apple.com (Chris Hansten)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 00:33:40 -0800
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <105E5DE0-171F-449F-A707-FF33C83536BE@icu-project.org>
References: <5682ADF2.9000103@bisharat.net>
 <CA+ONODk+iuO0hsfdcd70avY6Pmpa72NuEVZwuG3HDpKbKL91gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDE236E3-EBF0-4781-B48B-75977D1E53BE@icu-project.org>
 <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
 <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>
 <5689FD6A.5070606@bisharat.net>
 <CAGa7JC2QhuU1_=1hJD4LFbCQPu_0cnhVHA4pM+2kEB_ULzvBtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B7264C15-9A4D-4E12-8591-50C7AE8EC9C0@apple.com>
 <105E5DE0-171F-449F-A707-FF33C83536BE@icu-project.org>
Message-ID: <1B3BE738-268C-414B-AD11-CC15AE6BEA28@apple.com>

Steven is correct.

?chris

> On Jan 4, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Steven R. Loomis <srl at icu-project.org> wrote:
> 
> That?s my assumption. This list doesn?t show up as the ?iPhone language?.
> 
>  Looking at the context and functionality, it?s a list of languages that can be chosen to request application or website content - analogous to the browser?s language chooser. If you choose Shimaore (Comoran) and an application is written to have content for such a language (BCP47 ID ?swb?)  the user will see this content. The data is certainly from CLDR, possibly with a few autonyms supplemented ( ?Shimaore? for swb?).
> 
>  Some time ago, it seems apps were opened up to support bcp47 codes instead of a more restricted list (?English? ?Spanish? etc.) I don?t think there?s a lot of news here other than that the selector continues to expand. This doesn?t imply any additional data other than the autonym.
> 
>  When you pursue other avenues, please consider how to improve CLDR coverage for these languages, if you aren?t already considering so of course.
> 
> Steven
> 
> 
> 
>> El ene 4, 2016, a las 9:48 AM, Chris Hansten <chrish at apple.com <mailto:chrish at apple.com>> escribi?:
>> 
>> Hi Don,
>> 
>> When you asked the original question, I assume you are asking about the preferred language order setting. Correct?
>> 
>> ?chris
>> 
>>> On Jan 4, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I just wonder if Apple really chose those languages. They may have just searched about local demands and usage and thought it would be useful for its market to extend the list to everything that is available, using various local sources to define what was the minimum needed to support these locales.
>>> However, the reviewal process for the data mayh have been minimalist, and there would be corrections later in various aspects. Apple took its responsability and did not wait for a formal international agreement or standardization process. It could do it, and did it. Apple will correct errors later by listening its users and bug reports on its own developement platform and services.
>>> 
>>> 2016-01-04 6:04 GMT+01:00 Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>>:
>>> Basically:
>>> 1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
>>> 2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it developing if the strategy is to encourage apps)
>>> 
>>> I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help appreciated. Nothing urgent, but it looks like something significant, given the length and composition of the list.
>>> 
>>> Don
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>> You are welcome, Don.
>>>>  Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
>>>> -s
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> escribi?:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list. That exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating system comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on Android. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is well-placed to discuss their approach.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Don
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>>>> ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license information
>>>>>> ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here - http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/ <http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/>
>>>>>> ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not by language
>>>>>> ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a list of all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>>>>>  ( generator source here  <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827>https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 <https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827> ) . I did not correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it seems many, but not all, are actually CLDR locales. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>>>>>> Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>>>>>> Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>>>>>> Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA 
>>>>>> Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA 
>>>>>> Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM 
>>>>>> Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH 
>>>>>> Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>>>>>> Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET 
>>>>>> Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ 
>>>>>> Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD 
>>>>>> Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM 
>>>>>> Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ 
>>>>>> Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG 
>>>>>> Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER 
>>>>>> Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY 
>>>>>> Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR 
>>>>>> Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA 
>>>>>> Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO 
>>>>>> Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS 
>>>>>> Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD 
>>>>>> Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN 
>>>>>> Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH 
>>>>>> Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ 
>>>>>> Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>>>>>> Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM 
>>>>>> Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML 
>>>>>> Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>>>>>> Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM 
>>>>>> Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM 
>>>>>> Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ 
>>>>>> Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>>>>>> Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA 
>>>>>> Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG 
>>>>>> Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM 
>>>>>> Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE 
>>>>>> English (Botswana) - en-BW 
>>>>>> English (Burundi) - en-BI 
>>>>>> English (Cameroon) - en-CM 
>>>>>> English (Eritrea) - en-ER 
>>>>>> English (Gambia) - en-GM 
>>>>>> English (Ghana) - en-GH 
>>>>>> English (Kenya) - en-KE 
>>>>>> English (Lesotho) - en-LS 
>>>>>> English (Liberia) - en-LR 
>>>>>> English (Madagascar) - en-MG 
>>>>>> English (Malawi) - en-MW 
>>>>>> English (Mauritius) - en-MU 
>>>>>> English (Namibia) - en-NA 
>>>>>> English (Nigeria) - en-NG 
>>>>>> English (Rwanda) - en-RW 
>>>>>> English (Seychelles) - en-SC 
>>>>>> English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL 
>>>>>> English (South Africa) - en-ZA 
>>>>>> English (South Sudan) - en-SS 
>>>>>> English (St. Helena) - en-SH 
>>>>>> English (Sudan) - en-SD 
>>>>>> English (Swaziland) - en-SZ 
>>>>>> English (Tanzania) - en-TZ 
>>>>>> English (Uganda) - en-UG 
>>>>>> English (Zambia) - en-ZM 
>>>>>> English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW 
>>>>>> Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH 
>>>>>> Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG 
>>>>>> Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM 
>>>>>> French (Algeria) - fr-DZ 
>>>>>> French (Benin) - fr-BJ 
>>>>>> French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF 
>>>>>> French (Burundi) - fr-BI 
>>>>>> French (Cameroon) - fr-CM 
>>>>>> French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF 
>>>>>> French (Chad) - fr-TD 
>>>>>> French (Comoros) - fr-KM 
>>>>>> French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG 
>>>>>> French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD 
>>>>>> French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI 
>>>>>> French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ 
>>>>>> French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ 
>>>>>> French (Gabon) - fr-GA 
>>>>>> French (Guinea) - fr-GN 
>>>>>> French (Madagascar) - fr-MG 
>>>>>> French (Mali) - fr-ML 
>>>>>> French (Mauritania) - fr-MR 
>>>>>> French (Mauritius) - fr-MU 
>>>>>> French (Mayotte) - fr-YT 
>>>>>> French (Morocco) - fr-MA 
>>>>>> French (Niger) - fr-NE 
>>>>>> French (R?union) - fr-RE 
>>>>>> French (Rwanda) - fr-RW 
>>>>>> French (Senegal) - fr-SN 
>>>>>> French (Seychelles) - fr-SC 
>>>>>> French (Togo) - fr-TG 
>>>>>> French (Tunisia) - fr-TN 
>>>>>> Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM 
>>>>>> Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN 
>>>>>> Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR 
>>>>>> Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN 
>>>>>> Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>>>>>> Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG 
>>>>>> Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>>>>>> Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>>>>>> Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE 
>>>>>> Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>>>>>> Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>>>>>> Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH 
>>>>>> Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE 
>>>>>> Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG 
>>>>>> Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG 
>>>>>> Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>>>>>> Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN 
>>>>>> Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV 
>>>>>> Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ 
>>>>>> Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM 
>>>>>> Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE 
>>>>>> Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE 
>>>>>> Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>>>>>> Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE 
>>>>>> Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW 
>>>>>> Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML 
>>>>>> Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML 
>>>>>> Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>>>>>> Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>>>>>> Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM 
>>>>>> Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ 
>>>>>> Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO 
>>>>>> Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF 
>>>>>> Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG 
>>>>>> Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD 
>>>>>> Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD 
>>>>>> Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE 
>>>>>> Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE 
>>>>>> Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ 
>>>>>> Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ 
>>>>>> Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ 
>>>>>> Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG 
>>>>>> Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE 
>>>>>> Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ 
>>>>>> Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE 
>>>>>> Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM 
>>>>>> Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU 
>>>>>> Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM 
>>>>>> Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA 
>>>>>> Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM 
>>>>>> Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM 
>>>>>> Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW 
>>>>>> Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS 
>>>>>> Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>>>>>> Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG 
>>>>>> N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>>>>>> Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET 
>>>>>> Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE 
>>>>>> Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO 
>>>>>> Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV 
>>>>>> Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW 
>>>>>> Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ 
>>>>>> Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST 
>>>>>> Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ 
>>>>>> Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI 
>>>>>> Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ 
>>>>>> Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>>>>>> Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE 
>>>>>> Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF 
>>>>>> Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ 
>>>>>> Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ 
>>>>>> Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ 
>>>>>> Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW 
>>>>>> Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>>>>>> Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG 
>>>>>> Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ 
>>>>>> Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET 
>>>>>> Somali (Kenya) - so-KE 
>>>>>> Somali (Somalia) - so-SO 
>>>>>> Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>>>>>> Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC 
>>>>>> Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA 
>>>>>> Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ 
>>>>>> Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA 
>>>>>> Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD 
>>>>>> Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE 
>>>>>> Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ 
>>>>>> Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG 
>>>>>> Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>>>>>> Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA 
>>>>>> Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA 
>>>>>> Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE 
>>>>>> Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE 
>>>>>> Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE 
>>>>>> Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG 
>>>>>> Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>>>>>> Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER 
>>>>>> Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET 
>>>>>> Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>>>>>> Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>>>>>> Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR 
>>>>>> Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR 
>>>>>> Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ 
>>>>>> Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>>>>>> Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>>>>>> Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>> Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM 
>>>>>> Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ 
>>>>>> Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG 
>>>>>> Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE 
>>>>>> Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>> escribi?:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Those are names of languages available as part of data for CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this data doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR locale; i.e. having all sort of other information (date/time format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here is the language name for Hausa as appearing in data file for German:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228 <http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228>
>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>> Shervin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" < <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>dzo at bisharat.net <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for its long list of "other languages" (~240 by my estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone languages" fully supported in iOS - is impressive, though looking at some of the 74 African languages* included (by my count) it seems most are not supported beyond calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that some aspects of the list make it appear that it lists what's on CLDR.  However there are some languages one would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic, among others).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking and methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Don Osborn
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> * http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html <http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users <http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users>
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
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From dzo at bisharat.net  Tue Jan  5 14:38:23 2016
From: dzo at bisharat.net (Don Osborn)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:38:23 -0500
Subject: iPhone's other languages list from CLDR?
In-Reply-To: <1B3BE738-268C-414B-AD11-CC15AE6BEA28@apple.com>
References: <5682ADF2.9000103@bisharat.net>
 <CA+ONODk+iuO0hsfdcd70avY6Pmpa72NuEVZwuG3HDpKbKL91gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EDE236E3-EBF0-4781-B48B-75977D1E53BE@icu-project.org>
 <56843388.70604@bisharat.net>
 <9E20D0F0-9824-4CAC-A886-108F4D2D3AA3@icu-project.org>
 <5689FD6A.5070606@bisharat.net>
 <CAGa7JC2QhuU1_=1hJD4LFbCQPu_0cnhVHA4pM+2kEB_ULzvBtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B7264C15-9A4D-4E12-8591-50C7AE8EC9C0@apple.com>
 <105E5DE0-171F-449F-A707-FF33C83536BE@icu-project.org>
 <1B3BE738-268C-414B-AD11-CC15AE6BEA28@apple.com>
Message-ID: <568C29BF.3090402@bisharat.net>

Thanks Chris. In the example Steven gave,/1 however, there is apparently 
no locale for Comorian / Shimaore / Shikomor / Shimasiwa / swb. In fact, 
comparing the list Steven provided with my list of what I saw on 
iPhone6s+, there are 18 languages (or 19 if counting Soninke twice for 
Arabic & Latin scripts) among the 74 African languages listed for which 
CLDR does not have data. All these languages do appear in the list of 
languages named in the locale data shared by Shervin./2

How (by what criteria) were the languages not in CLDR chosen to add to 
the list? Neither a problem nor a complaint, just curious.

On the other hand, there are 46 languages (by quick visual count in the 
"main" folder I downloaded from unicode.org) that (a) do have locales 
currently listed in CLDR, but (b) do *not* appear in iPhone6s's 
repertoire. Many of those are less-resourced and less-widely spoken, so 
perhaps not a priority, but some like Amharic, Hausa, Tigrinya, and 
Tsonga are significant. Which raises another question: Why were some 
languages not included? Again, just hoping to better understand the 
approach taken.

Comparing the lists does highlight gaps in coverage of locales for the 
18 languages mentioned above, although two of them, Fanti and Twi might 
be considered as covered by Akan. The other 16 on the iPhone list but 
not represented in CLDR include:
* Adangme (this is close to Ga, for which there is locale data)
* Comorian (the Swahili locale might possibly be of some help on this)
* Kanuri
* Kimbundu
* Kuanyama (might be worked on together with Ndonga - these are 
sometimes considered together as Oshiwambo)
* Lozi
* Luba-Lulua (aka Tshiluba; not sure how close this is to Luba-Katanga, 
for which there is a locale data)
* Mende
* Mossi (aka Moore)
* Ndonga (might be worked on together with Kuanyama - these are 
sometimes considered together as Oshiwambo)
* Ngambay
* Soninke (Latin and Arabic, though I don't know how widely the latter 
transcription - "Ajami" - is used)
* Sukuma
* Tumbuka
* Umbundu
* Yemba

Thanks in advance for any further info or pointers (if this is getting 
off-topic for the list, that could be offlist).

Steven, regarding improving CLDR coverage of African languages, agree 
there is a need. Last major effort was the 100 locales project of ANLoc, 
Kamusi, and IT46+ about 5-6 years ago. Last status I'm aware of via the 
old LocaleGen utility/3 (worth noting that 15 of the 16 I just listed 
above are on this status list, and the 16th, Luba-Lulua might be 
intended by the mistagged "Kiluba"). Not aware of any organization 
actively pursuing this now - let alone any funding available for 
initiatives in this area. It's beyond what I'm in the position to take 
on now but will try to keep the word circulating.

Best to all,

Don Osborn

1. https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827
2. http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228
3. http://www.it46.se/afrigen/statistics.php


On 1/5/2016 3:33 AM, Chris Hansten wrote:
> Steven is correct.
>
> ?chris
>
>> On Jan 4, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Steven R. Loomis <srl at icu-project.org 
>> <mailto:srl at icu-project.org>> wrote:
>>
>> That?s my assumption. This list doesn?t show up as the ?iPhone language?.
>>
>>  Looking at the context and functionality, it?s a list of languages 
>> that can be chosen to request application or website content - 
>> analogous to the browser?s language chooser. If you choose Shimaore 
>> (Comoran) and an application is written to have content for such a 
>> language (BCP47 ID ?swb?)  the user will see this content. The data 
>> is certainly from CLDR, possibly with a few autonyms supplemented ( 
>> ?Shimaore? for swb?).
>>
>>  Some time ago, it seems apps were opened up to support bcp47 codes 
>> instead of a more restricted list (?English? ?Spanish? etc.) I don?t 
>> think there?s a lot of news here other than that the selector 
>> continues to expand. This doesn?t imply any additional data other 
>> than the autonym.
>>
>>  When you pursue other avenues, please consider how to improve CLDR 
>> coverage for these languages, if you aren?t already considering so of 
>> course.
>>
>> Steven
>>
>>
>>
>>> El ene 4, 2016, a las 9:48 AM, Chris Hansten <chrish at apple.com 
>>> <mailto:chrish at apple.com>> escribi?:
>>>
>>> Hi Don,
>>>
>>> When you asked the original question, I assume you are asking about 
>>> the preferred language order setting. Correct?
>>>
>>> ?chris
>>>
>>>> On Jan 4, 2016, at 5:00 AM, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr 
>>>> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I just wonder if Apple really chose those languages. They may have 
>>>> just searched about local demands and usage and thought it would be 
>>>> useful for its market to extend the list to everything that is 
>>>> available, using various local sources to define what was the 
>>>> minimum needed to support these locales.
>>>> However, the reviewal process for the data mayh have been 
>>>> minimalist, and there would be corrections later in various 
>>>> aspects. Apple took its responsability and did not wait for a 
>>>> formal international agreement or standardization process. It could 
>>>> do it, and did it. Apple will correct errors later by listening its 
>>>> users and bug reports on its own developement platform and services.
>>>>
>>>> 2016-01-04 6:04 GMT+01:00 Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net 
>>>> <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>>:
>>>>
>>>>     Basically:
>>>>     1) How the list was generated / languages chosen
>>>>     2) What they plan to do with it (or how they foresee it
>>>>     developing if the strategy is to encourage apps)
>>>>
>>>>     I am also pursuing other avenues also, but any help
>>>>     appreciated. Nothing urgent, but it looks like something
>>>>     significant, given the length and composition of the list.
>>>>
>>>>     Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 1/3/2016 12:40 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>>>     You are welcome, Don.
>>>>>      Can you give some more detail on what you are looking for?
>>>>>     -s
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>     El dic 30, 2015, a las 11:42 AM, Don Osborn <dzo at bisharat.net
>>>>>>     <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> escribi?:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Thank you Shervin and Steven for these responses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Steven, This list with notes is especially helpful - am still
>>>>>>     digesting. Will compare in more detail with the iPhone list.
>>>>>>     That exercise would be more rewarding in a cross-operating
>>>>>>     system comparison - if there were a clear list of what's on
>>>>>>     Android.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Also hoping for more info from someone at Apple who is
>>>>>>     well-placed to discuss their approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Best wishes for the New Year 2016!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On 12/29/2015 2:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote:
>>>>>>>     ? ICU (which uses CLDR) is noted in iOS and MacOSX?s license
>>>>>>>     information
>>>>>>>     ? ICU open source (for OSX ) is linked here -
>>>>>>>     http://opensource.apple.com/source/ICU/ICU-551.41/
>>>>>>>     ? default calendar information in CLDR is by region and not
>>>>>>>     by language
>>>>>>>     ? Many of these locales listed are in CLDR. I printed out a
>>>>>>>     list of all locales that are in Africa (002):
>>>>>>>      ( generator source here
>>>>>>>     https://gist.github.com/srl295/f87d06a1405a23e85827 ) . I
>>>>>>>     did not correlate this to the iphone 6 list exactly but it
>>>>>>>     seems many, but not all, are actually CLDR locales.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     So these are locales of Africa which have content in CLDR:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Afar (Djibouti) - aa-DJ [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Afar (Eritrea) - aa-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Afar (Ethiopia) - aa-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Afrikaans (Namibia) - af-NA
>>>>>>>     Afrikaans (South Africa) - af-ZA
>>>>>>>     Aghem (Cameroon) - agq-CM
>>>>>>>     Akan (Ghana) - ak-GH
>>>>>>>     Akoose (Cameroon) - bss-CM [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Amharic (Ethiopia) - am-ET
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Algeria) - ar-DZ
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Chad) - ar-TD
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Comoros) - ar-KM
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Djibouti) - ar-DJ
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Egypt) - ar-EG
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Eritrea) - ar-ER
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Libya) - ar-LY
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Mauritania) - ar-MR
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Morocco) - ar-MA
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Somalia) - ar-SO
>>>>>>>     Arabic (South Sudan) - ar-SS
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Sudan) - ar-SD
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Tunisia) - ar-TN
>>>>>>>     Arabic (Western Sahara) - ar-EH
>>>>>>>     Asu (Tanzania) - asa-TZ
>>>>>>>     Atsam (Nigeria) - cch-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Bafia (Cameroon) - ksf-CM
>>>>>>>     Bambara (Mali) - bm-ML
>>>>>>>     Bambara (N?Ko, Mali) - bm-Nkoo-ML [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Basaa (Cameroon) - bas-CM
>>>>>>>     Bemba (Zambia) - bem-ZM
>>>>>>>     Bena (Tanzania) - bez-TZ
>>>>>>>     Blin (Eritrea) - byn-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Central Atlas Tamazight (Morocco) - tzm-MA
>>>>>>>     Chiga (Uganda) - cgg-UG
>>>>>>>     Duala (Cameroon) - dua-CM
>>>>>>>     Embu (Kenya) - ebu-KE
>>>>>>>     English (Botswana) - en-BW
>>>>>>>     English (Burundi) - en-BI
>>>>>>>     English (Cameroon) - en-CM
>>>>>>>     English (Eritrea) - en-ER
>>>>>>>     English (Gambia) - en-GM
>>>>>>>     English (Ghana) - en-GH
>>>>>>>     English (Kenya) - en-KE
>>>>>>>     English (Lesotho) - en-LS
>>>>>>>     English (Liberia) - en-LR
>>>>>>>     English (Madagascar) - en-MG
>>>>>>>     English (Malawi) - en-MW
>>>>>>>     English (Mauritius) - en-MU
>>>>>>>     English (Namibia) - en-NA
>>>>>>>     English (Nigeria) - en-NG
>>>>>>>     English (Rwanda) - en-RW
>>>>>>>     English (Seychelles) - en-SC
>>>>>>>     English (Sierra Leone) - en-SL
>>>>>>>     English (South Africa) - en-ZA
>>>>>>>     English (South Sudan) - en-SS
>>>>>>>     English (St. Helena) - en-SH
>>>>>>>     English (Sudan) - en-SD
>>>>>>>     English (Swaziland) - en-SZ
>>>>>>>     English (Tanzania) - en-TZ
>>>>>>>     English (Uganda) - en-UG
>>>>>>>     English (Zambia) - en-ZM
>>>>>>>     English (Zimbabwe) - en-ZW
>>>>>>>     Ewe (Ghana) - ee-GH
>>>>>>>     Ewe (Togo) - ee-TG
>>>>>>>     Ewondo (Cameroon) - ewo-CM
>>>>>>>     French (Algeria) - fr-DZ
>>>>>>>     French (Benin) - fr-BJ
>>>>>>>     French (Burkina Faso) - fr-BF
>>>>>>>     French (Burundi) - fr-BI
>>>>>>>     French (Cameroon) - fr-CM
>>>>>>>     French (Central African Republic) - fr-CF
>>>>>>>     French (Chad) - fr-TD
>>>>>>>     French (Comoros) - fr-KM
>>>>>>>     French (Congo - Brazzaville) - fr-CG
>>>>>>>     French (Congo - Kinshasa) - fr-CD
>>>>>>>     French (C?te d?Ivoire) - fr-CI
>>>>>>>     French (Djibouti) - fr-DJ
>>>>>>>     French (Equatorial Guinea) - fr-GQ
>>>>>>>     French (Gabon) - fr-GA
>>>>>>>     French (Guinea) - fr-GN
>>>>>>>     French (Madagascar) - fr-MG
>>>>>>>     French (Mali) - fr-ML
>>>>>>>     French (Mauritania) - fr-MR
>>>>>>>     French (Mauritius) - fr-MU
>>>>>>>     French (Mayotte) - fr-YT
>>>>>>>     French (Morocco) - fr-MA
>>>>>>>     French (Niger) - fr-NE
>>>>>>>     French (R?union) - fr-RE
>>>>>>>     French (Rwanda) - fr-RW
>>>>>>>     French (Senegal) - fr-SN
>>>>>>>     French (Seychelles) - fr-SC
>>>>>>>     French (Togo) - fr-TG
>>>>>>>     French (Tunisia) - fr-TN
>>>>>>>     Fulah (Cameroon) - ff-CM
>>>>>>>     Fulah (Guinea) - ff-GN
>>>>>>>     Fulah (Mauritania) - ff-MR
>>>>>>>     Fulah (Senegal) - ff-SN
>>>>>>>     Ga (Ghana) - gaa-GH [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Ganda (Uganda) - lg-UG
>>>>>>>     Geez (Eritrea) - gez-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Geez (Ethiopia) - gez-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Gusii (Kenya) - guz-KE
>>>>>>>     Hausa (Arabic, Nigeria) - ha-Arab-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Hausa (Arabic, Sudan) - ha-Arab-SD [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Hausa (Ghana) - ha-GH
>>>>>>>     Hausa (Niger) - ha-NE
>>>>>>>     Hausa (Nigeria) - ha-NG
>>>>>>>     Igbo (Nigeria) - ig-NG
>>>>>>>     Jju (Nigeria) - kaj-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Jola-Fonyi (Senegal) - dyo-SN
>>>>>>>     Kabuverdianu (Cape Verde) - kea-CV
>>>>>>>     Kabyle (Algeria) - kab-DZ
>>>>>>>     Kako (Cameroon) - kkj-CM
>>>>>>>     Kalenjin (Kenya) - kln-KE
>>>>>>>     Kamba (Kenya) - kam-KE
>>>>>>>     Kenyang (Cameroon) - ken-CM [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Kikuyu (Kenya) - ki-KE
>>>>>>>     Kinyarwanda (Rwanda) - rw-RW
>>>>>>>     Koyraboro Senni (Mali) - ses-ML
>>>>>>>     Koyra Chiini (Mali) - khq-ML
>>>>>>>     Kpelle (Guinea) - kpe-GN [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Kpelle (Liberia) - kpe-LR [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Kwasio (Cameroon) - nmg-CM
>>>>>>>     Langi (Tanzania) - lag-TZ
>>>>>>>     Lingala (Angola) - ln-AO
>>>>>>>     Lingala (Central African Republic) - ln-CF
>>>>>>>     Lingala (Congo - Brazzaville) - ln-CG
>>>>>>>     Lingala (Congo - Kinshasa) - ln-CD
>>>>>>>     Luba-Katanga (Congo - Kinshasa) - lu-CD
>>>>>>>     Luo (Kenya) - luo-KE
>>>>>>>     Luyia (Kenya) - luy-KE
>>>>>>>     Machame (Tanzania) - jmc-TZ
>>>>>>>     Makhuwa-Meetto (Mozambique) - mgh-MZ
>>>>>>>     Makonde (Tanzania) - kde-TZ
>>>>>>>     Malagasy (Madagascar) - mg-MG
>>>>>>>     Masai (Kenya) - mas-KE
>>>>>>>     Masai (Tanzania) - mas-TZ
>>>>>>>     Meru (Kenya) - mer-KE
>>>>>>>     Meta? (Cameroon) - mgo-CM
>>>>>>>     Morisyen (Mauritius) - mfe-MU
>>>>>>>     Mundang (Cameroon) - mua-CM
>>>>>>>     Nama (Namibia) - naq-NA
>>>>>>>     Ngiemboon (Cameroon) - nnh-CM
>>>>>>>     Ngomba (Cameroon) - jgo-CM
>>>>>>>     Northern Sotho (South Africa) - nso-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     North Ndebele (Zimbabwe) - nd-ZW
>>>>>>>     Nuer (South Sudan) - nus-SS
>>>>>>>     Nyanja (Malawi) - ny-MW [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Nyankole (Uganda) - nyn-UG
>>>>>>>     N?Ko (Guinea) - nqo-GN [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Oromo (Ethiopia) - om-ET
>>>>>>>     Oromo (Kenya) - om-KE
>>>>>>>     Portuguese (Angola) - pt-AO
>>>>>>>     Portuguese (Cape Verde) - pt-CV
>>>>>>>     Portuguese (Guinea-Bissau) - pt-GW
>>>>>>>     Portuguese (Mozambique) - pt-MZ
>>>>>>>     Portuguese (S?o Tom? & Pr?ncipe) - pt-ST
>>>>>>>     Rombo (Tanzania) - rof-TZ
>>>>>>>     Rundi (Burundi) - rn-BI
>>>>>>>     Rwa (Tanzania) - rwk-TZ
>>>>>>>     Saho (Eritrea) - ssy-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Samburu (Kenya) - saq-KE
>>>>>>>     Sango (Central African Republic) - sg-CF
>>>>>>>     Sangu (Tanzania) - sbp-TZ
>>>>>>>     Sena (Mozambique) - seh-MZ
>>>>>>>     Shambala (Tanzania) - ksb-TZ
>>>>>>>     Shona (Zimbabwe) - sn-ZW
>>>>>>>     Sidamo (Ethiopia) - sid-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Soga (Uganda) - xog-UG
>>>>>>>     Somali (Djibouti) - so-DJ
>>>>>>>     Somali (Ethiopia) - so-ET
>>>>>>>     Somali (Kenya) - so-KE
>>>>>>>     Somali (Somalia) - so-SO
>>>>>>>     Southern Sotho (Lesotho) - st-LS [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Southern Sotho (South Africa) - st-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     South Ndebele (South Africa) - nr-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Spanish (Canary Islands) - es-IC
>>>>>>>     Spanish (Ceuta & Melilla) - es-EA
>>>>>>>     Spanish (Equatorial Guinea) - es-GQ
>>>>>>>     Standard Moroccan Tamazight (Morocco) - zgh-MA
>>>>>>>     Swahili (Congo - Kinshasa) - sw-CD
>>>>>>>     Swahili (Kenya) - sw-KE
>>>>>>>     Swahili (Tanzania) - sw-TZ
>>>>>>>     Swahili (Uganda) - sw-UG
>>>>>>>     Swati (South Africa) - ss-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Swati (Swaziland) - ss-SZ [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Tachelhit (Latin, Morocco) - shi-Latn-MA
>>>>>>>     Tachelhit (Tifinagh, Morocco) - shi-Tfng-MA
>>>>>>>     Taita (Kenya) - dav-KE
>>>>>>>     Tasawaq (Niger) - twq-NE
>>>>>>>     Teso (Kenya) - teo-KE
>>>>>>>     Teso (Uganda) - teo-UG
>>>>>>>     Tigre (Eritrea) - tig-ER [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Tigrinya (Eritrea) - ti-ER
>>>>>>>     Tigrinya (Ethiopia) - ti-ET
>>>>>>>     Tsonga (South Africa) - ts-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Tswana (Botswana) - tn-BW [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Tswana (South Africa) - tn-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Tyap (Nigeria) - kcg-NG [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Vai (Latin, Liberia) - vai-Latn-LR
>>>>>>>     Vai (Vai, Liberia) - vai-Vaii-LR
>>>>>>>     Venda (South Africa) - ve-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Vunjo (Tanzania) - vun-TZ
>>>>>>>     Wolaytta (Ethiopia) - wal-ET [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Wolof (Senegal) - wo-SN [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Xhosa (South Africa) - xh-ZA [SEED]
>>>>>>>     Yangben (Cameroon) - yav-CM
>>>>>>>     Yoruba (Benin) - yo-BJ
>>>>>>>     Yoruba (Nigeria) - yo-NG
>>>>>>>     Zarma (Niger) - dje-NE
>>>>>>>     Zulu (South Africa) - zu-ZA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     El dic 29, 2015, a las 8:30 AM, Shervin Afshar
>>>>>>>>     <shervinafshar at gmail.com <mailto:shervinafshar at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>     escribi?:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Those are names of languages available as part of data for
>>>>>>>>     CLDR-supported locales. The mere fact that CLDR has this
>>>>>>>>     data doesn't necessarily mean that that language is a CLDR
>>>>>>>>     locale; i.e. having all sort of other information
>>>>>>>>     (date/time format, numbers, etc.) beyond these names. Here
>>>>>>>>     is the language name for Hausa as appearing in data file
>>>>>>>>     for German:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/browser/trunk/common/main/de.xml#L228
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Best Regards,
>>>>>>>>     Shervin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     On Dec 29, 2015 8:01 AM, "Don Osborn" <dzo at bisharat.net
>>>>>>>>     <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Greetings, Does anyone know if Apple relied on CLDR for
>>>>>>>>         its long list of "other languages" (~240 by my
>>>>>>>>         estimation) on iPhone6c(plus)? Apologies that this is
>>>>>>>>         off-topic (replies offline probably best).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         The list of "other languages" - not the "iPhone
>>>>>>>>         languages" fully supported in iOS - is impressive,
>>>>>>>>         though looking at some of the 74 African languages*
>>>>>>>>         included (by my count) it seems most are not supported
>>>>>>>>         beyond calendars. Charles Riley suggested offline that
>>>>>>>>         some aspects of the list make it appear that it lists
>>>>>>>>         what's on CLDR.  However there are some languages one
>>>>>>>>         would expect to see that are not there (Hausa, Amharic,
>>>>>>>>         among others).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Really interested to know more about Apple's thinking
>>>>>>>>         and methods on this. TIA for any info or leads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Best wishes to all for the New Year 2016.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Don Osborn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         *
>>>>>>>>         http://niamey.blogspot.com/2015/12/list-of-african-languages-on-iphone6s.html
>>>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>         CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>>>>         CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>>>>         http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>     CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>>>>>     CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>>>>>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>>     CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>>     http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org <mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>

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From mark at macchiato.com  Wed Jan 20 11:09:03 2016
From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:09:03 +0100
Subject: Removing Any-Accents
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_HcfE+ZeWksRxNtxH0dC5XQDA8T=U-BTtY67yuFQC2L8w@mail.gmail.com>

There is a bug to remove Any-Accents and Accents-Any transformations (#9164
<http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9164>). Does anyone need this to
remain?

Mark
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From chenshiwei at huawei.com  Thu Jan 21 02:23:26 2016
From: chenshiwei at huawei.com (Chenshiwei (Yona))
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:23:26 +0000
Subject: There is a bug about Cyprus  
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2xs_HcfE+ZeWksRxNtxH0dC5XQDA8T=U-BTtY67yuFQC2L8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2xs_HcfE+ZeWksRxNtxH0dC5XQDA8T=U-BTtY67yuFQC2L8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAEAC8FF6D00334DB80CC10C92D0E1B3839D3900@szxema505-mbs.china.huawei.com>



Hi All

The language selector for Cyprus has political issues, pls check

http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9192

Best regards,
Yona


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From kazede at google.com  Thu Jan 21 19:30:32 2016
From: kazede at google.com (kz)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:30:32 -0800
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be confusing
Message-ID: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear CLDR users,

I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B for
datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .

Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at least
in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.

In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
"midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
(beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).

As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.

Any opinions?


Thanks
kz
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From duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp  Fri Jan 22 00:40:18 2016
From: duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp (=?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:40:18 +0900
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>

In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I 
just recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I 
spent about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual 
deadline was.

While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and 
CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world 
wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the 
more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or 
some such), the better.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
> Dear CLDR users,
>
> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B for
> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>
> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at least
> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>
> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>
> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>
> Any opinions?
>
>
> Thanks
> kz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>

From mark at macchiato.com  Fri Jan 22 01:57:48 2016
From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:57:48 +0100
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>

I think it really depends on context. I think the following, for example,
refer to the same time, the instant between Tuesday and Wednesday.

   - Wednesday, I was wide awake from midnight to 5am.
   - Tuesday, the party lasted from 7pm to midnight.

The context of a range makes it clear what was meant.

I'm ok with holding back on using midnight, except when

   1. there is a word for midnight in the locale that (predominantly) means
   the start of the day (00:00).
   2. in time intervals (where the context is then clear enough). However,
   see below.

Normally, date-time software views time-periods as half-open intervals. For
example, the first hour of a day is from 00:00 to 00:59:59.9..., a day is
from 00:00 to 23:59:59.9999..., a year is until Dec 31, 23:59:59.9999...,
and so on.

#2 is connected with a separate ticket which is to allow for the
time-of-day to be *formatted* as being 24:00 or after. The primary use case
for that is to allow time intervals (eg for opening hours) to span
midnight, which are used in some countries, such as:

Wednesday 18:00 ? 25:00


However, it could also allow for the use of a term "midnight" for 24:00,
where that is the most natural expression.

Mark

Mark

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
wrote:

> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I just
> recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent
> about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>
> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and
> CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world
> wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the
> more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some
> such), the better.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
>
>> Dear CLDR users,
>>
>> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B
>> for
>> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>>
>> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
>> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
>> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at
>> least
>> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
>> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
>> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>>
>> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
>> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
>> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>>
>> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
>> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
>> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> kz
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
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From skeet at pobox.com  Fri Jan 22 02:12:21 2016
From: skeet at pobox.com (Jon Skeet)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:12:21 +0000
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+5fHtJZTCt98TTr+NA69fLf_dNOr9J8nR8NU=k1eVjsGFpdmA@mail.gmail.com>

Just as one extra wrinkle, if we define "midnight" to be "the time that one
day becomes another", it doesn't always happen at 00:00. If we define it to
be 00:00, it doesn't always occur.
I'm basically thinking about time zones (e.g. Brazil) which "spring
forward" at what would have been midnight, e.g.

23:59:58
23:59:59
01:00:00
01:00:01

Depending on your definition of midnight, it either doesn't happen or it
happens at 01:00. (Fortunately I don't *think* there are any examples where
00:00 occurs twice due to fall-back rules, although I wouldn't be
surprised.)

I'm not saying this is something we should fall out specifically - but it's
something we should be aware of when considering using the term "midnight".

Jon


On 22 January 2016 at 07:57, Mark Davis ?? <mark at macchiato.com> wrote:

> I think it really depends on context. I think the following, for example,
> refer to the same time, the instant between Tuesday and Wednesday.
>
>    - Wednesday, I was wide awake from midnight to 5am.
>    - Tuesday, the party lasted from 7pm to midnight.
>
> The context of a range makes it clear what was meant.
>
> I'm ok with holding back on using midnight, except when
>
>    1. there is a word for midnight in the locale that (predominantly)
>    means the start of the day (00:00).
>    2. in time intervals (where the context is then clear enough).
>    However, see below.
>
> Normally, date-time software views time-periods as half-open intervals.
> For example, the first hour of a day is from 00:00 to 00:59:59.9..., a day
> is from 00:00 to 23:59:59.9999..., a year is until Dec 31,
> 23:59:59.9999..., and so on.
>
> #2 is connected with a separate ticket which is to allow for the
> time-of-day to be *formatted* as being 24:00 or after. The primary use
> case for that is to allow time intervals (eg for opening hours) to span
> midnight, which are used in some countries, such as:
>
> Wednesday 18:00 ? 25:00
>
>
> However, it could also allow for the use of a term "midnight" for 24:00,
> where that is the most natural expression.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> wrote:
>
>> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I just
>> recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent
>> about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>>
>> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and
>> CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world
>> wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the
>> more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some
>> such), the better.
>>
>> Regards,    Martin.
>>
>> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
>>
>>> Dear CLDR users,
>>>
>>> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B
>>> for
>>> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
>>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>>>
>>> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to
>>> 0:00,
>>> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
>>> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at
>>> least
>>> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
>>> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
>>> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>>>
>>> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use
>>> of
>>> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
>>> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>>>
>>> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove
>>> "midnight"
>>> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
>>> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>>>
>>> Any opinions?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> kz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
>
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From duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp  Fri Jan 22 03:32:22 2016
From: duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp (=?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:32:22 +0900
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR0301MB20452C73AFA08923EE9EBDB982C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB20452C73AFA08923EE9EBDB982C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <56A1F726.70702@it.aoyama.ac.jp>

On 2016/01/22 18:08, Shawn Steele wrote:
> Is there a problem with a ?midnight-end? and a ?midnight-start??

Not with the concepts. But I wouldn't want to use these labels as such 
in a user-facing message. But maybe that's not what you meant.

Regrads,   Martin.

> From: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis ??
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:58 PM
> To: Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org; kz <kazede at google.com>; ICU Core <icu-core at lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be confusing
>
> I think it really depends on context. I think the following, for example, refer to the same time, the instant between Tuesday and Wednesday.
>
>    *   Wednesday, I was wide awake from midnight to 5am.
>    *   Tuesday, the party lasted from 7pm to midnight.
> The context of a range makes it clear what was meant.
>
> I'm ok with holding back on using midnight, except when
>
>    1.  there is a word for midnight in the locale that (predominantly) means the start of the day (00:00).
>    2.  in time intervals (where the context is then clear enough). However, see below.
> Normally, date-time software views time-periods as half-open intervals. For example, the first hour of a day is from 00:00 to 00:59:59.9..., a day is from 00:00 to 23:59:59.9999..., a year is until Dec 31, 23:59:59.9999..., and so on.
>
> #2 is connected with a separate ticket which is to allow for the time-of-day to be formatted as being 24:00 or after. The primary use case for that is to allow time intervals (eg for opening hours) to span midnight, which are used in some countries, such as:
>
> Wednesday 18:00 ? 25:00
>
> However, it could also allow for the use of a term "midnight" for 24:00, where that is the most natural expression.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp<mailto:duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>> wrote:
> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I just recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>
> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some such), the better.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
> Dear CLDR users,
>
> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B for
> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>
> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at least
> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>
> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>
> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>
> Any opinions?
>
>
> Thanks
> kz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org<mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org<mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>

From mark at macchiato.com  Fri Jan 22 03:35:07 2016
From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:35:07 +0100
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <56A1F726.70702@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB20452C73AFA08923EE9EBDB982C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <56A1F726.70702@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_GE7AduGqb4UY++gZxr1SrVkz7kiSfuQsXHM_GMTzLH5Q@mail.gmail.com>

I think Shawn means the internal codes, that are translated.

{phone}
On Jan 22, 2016 10:32, "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:

> On 2016/01/22 18:08, Shawn Steele wrote:
>
>> Is there a problem with a ?midnight-end? and a ?midnight-start??
>>
>
> Not with the concepts. But I wouldn't want to use these labels as such in
> a user-facing message. But maybe that's not what you meant.
>
> Regrads,   Martin.
>
> From: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of
>> Mark Davis ??
>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:58 PM
>> To: Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org; kz <kazede at google.com>; ICU Core <
>> icu-core at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Subject: Re: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
>> confusing
>>
>> I think it really depends on context. I think the following, for example,
>> refer to the same time, the instant between Tuesday and Wednesday.
>>
>>    *   Wednesday, I was wide awake from midnight to 5am.
>>    *   Tuesday, the party lasted from 7pm to midnight.
>> The context of a range makes it clear what was meant.
>>
>> I'm ok with holding back on using midnight, except when
>>
>>    1.  there is a word for midnight in the locale that (predominantly)
>> means the start of the day (00:00).
>>    2.  in time intervals (where the context is then clear enough).
>> However, see below.
>> Normally, date-time software views time-periods as half-open intervals.
>> For example, the first hour of a day is from 00:00 to 00:59:59.9..., a day
>> is from 00:00 to 23:59:59.9999..., a year is until Dec 31,
>> 23:59:59.9999..., and so on.
>>
>> #2 is connected with a separate ticket which is to allow for the
>> time-of-day to be formatted as being 24:00 or after. The primary use case
>> for that is to allow time intervals (eg for opening hours) to span
>> midnight, which are used in some countries, such as:
>>
>> Wednesday 18:00 ? 25:00
>>
>> However, it could also allow for the use of a term "midnight" for 24:00,
>> where that is the most natural expression.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp
>> <mailto:duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>> wrote:
>> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I just
>> recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent
>> about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>>
>> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and
>> CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world
>> wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the
>> more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some
>> such), the better.
>>
>> Regards,    Martin.
>>
>> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
>> Dear CLDR users,
>>
>> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B
>> for
>> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>>
>> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
>> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
>> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at
>> least
>> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
>> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
>> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>>
>> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
>> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
>> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>>
>> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
>> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
>> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> kz
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org<mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org<mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
>>
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From mark at macchiato.com  Fri Jan 22 04:04:35 2016
From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:04:35 +0100
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR0301MB2045A0E34C6A7B7881B992F082C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB20452C73AFA08923EE9EBDB982C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <56A1F726.70702@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_GE7AduGqb4UY++gZxr1SrVkz7kiSfuQsXHM_GMTzLH5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB2045A0E34C6A7B7881B992F082C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_GopnGAO253DvbYShEsaaO9-NNty6rAO+cXaGzq1SEMwg@mail.gmail.com>

What I think we could do is change records like the following (NB
"midnight" is an ID):

   <dayPeriod type="midnight">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>

to:

   <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
   <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>

Then ask translators to change these to be distinct, but only where there
are different possible customary terms.

Once this is done, in software, if they are the same we can suppress them
in an ambiguous context, and show them where it is clear. (Of course, under
the control of the formatting pattern.)


Mark

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele at microsoft.com>
wrote:

> I meant the concepts J  Sounds to me like the distinction is interesting
> in some languages, so I think that having two makes sense.  Even if it
> seems silly in English.
>
>
>
> Have the begin version default to the end version maybe?
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis at gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis ??
> *Sent:* Friday, January 22, 2016 1:35 AM
> *To:* Martin Duerst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> *Cc:* cldr-users at unicode.org; Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele at microsoft.com>;
> ICU Core <icu-core at lists.sourceforge.net>; kz <kazede at google.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
> confusing
>
>
>
> I think Shawn means the internal codes, that are translated.
>
> {phone}
>
> On Jan 22, 2016 10:32, "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
>
> On 2016/01/22 18:08, Shawn Steele wrote:
>
> Is there a problem with a ?midnight-end? and a ?midnight-start??
>
>
> Not with the concepts. But I wouldn't want to use these labels as such in
> a user-facing message. But maybe that's not what you meant.
>
> Regrads,   Martin.
>
> From: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of
> Mark Davis ??
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:58 PM
> To: Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org; kz <kazede at google.com>; ICU Core <
> icu-core at lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
> confusing
>
> I think it really depends on context. I think the following, for example,
> refer to the same time, the instant between Tuesday and Wednesday.
>
>    *   Wednesday, I was wide awake from midnight to 5am.
>    *   Tuesday, the party lasted from 7pm to midnight.
> The context of a range makes it clear what was meant.
>
> I'm ok with holding back on using midnight, except when
>
>    1.  there is a word for midnight in the locale that (predominantly)
> means the start of the day (00:00).
>    2.  in time intervals (where the context is then clear enough).
> However, see below.
> Normally, date-time software views time-periods as half-open intervals.
> For example, the first hour of a day is from 00:00 to 00:59:59.9..., a day
> is from 00:00 to 23:59:59.9999..., a year is until Dec 31,
> 23:59:59.9999..., and so on.
>
> #2 is connected with a separate ticket which is to allow for the
> time-of-day to be formatted as being 24:00 or after. The primary use case
> for that is to allow time intervals (eg for opening hours) to span
> midnight, which are used in some countries, such as:
>
> Wednesday 18:00 ? 25:00
>
> However, it could also allow for the use of a term "midnight" for 24:00,
> where that is the most natural expression.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp
> <mailto:duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>> wrote:
> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I just
> recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent
> about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>
> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and
> CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world
> wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the
> more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some
> such), the better.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
> Dear CLDR users,
>
> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B for
> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>
> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at least
> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>
> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>
> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>
> Any opinions?
>
>
> Thanks
> kz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org<mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org<mailto:CLDR-Users at unicode.org>
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
>
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From duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp  Fri Jan 22 04:43:56 2016
From: duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp (=?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:43:56 +0900
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2xs_GopnGAO253DvbYShEsaaO9-NNty6rAO+cXaGzq1SEMwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB20452C73AFA08923EE9EBDB982C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <56A1F726.70702@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_GE7AduGqb4UY++gZxr1SrVkz7kiSfuQsXHM_GMTzLH5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB2045A0E34C6A7B7881B992F082C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAJ2xs_GopnGAO253DvbYShEsaaO9-NNty6rAO+cXaGzq1SEMwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A207EC.8040602@it.aoyama.ac.jp>

On 2016/01/22 19:04, Mark Davis ?? wrote:
> What I think we could do is change records like the following (NB
> "midnight" is an ID):
>
>     <dayPeriod type="midnight">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>
> to:
>
>     <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>     <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>
> Then ask translators to change these to be distinct, but only where there
> are different possible customary terms.
>
> Once this is done, in software, if they are the same we can suppress them
> in an ambiguous context, and show them where it is clear. (Of course, under
> the control of the formatting pattern.)

This sounds like a good plan. Except that while I agree that your 
earlier examples were pretty clear as they appeared in (hand-written) 
text, I'm not sure to what extent software can be made to detect where 
the context is ambiguous and where not.

Regards,   Martin.

From verdy_p at wanadoo.fr  Fri Jan 22 06:24:52 2016
From: verdy_p at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Verdy)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:24:52 +0100
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAGa7JC2T1iYykp6SJ3cb30ESBYEuOtH-J63QujYWqM=m8a_kbw@mail.gmail.com>

We have the same confusion in French, but it is disabiguated by the
context, when a sentence says that
- something starts on D day at midnight it means 00:00 at start of this D
day and not 24:00 at end of this D day
- something ends on D day at midnight it means 24:00 at end of this D day
and not 0000 at end of this D day
We need disambiguation when the context does not clearly state if this is a
start or end, i.e. an isolated timestamp. In such case we won't refer to
midnight ("minuit" in French) but 00:00 ("0 h" or "z?ro heure" in French)
or 24:00 ("24 h" or vingt-quatre heures" in French). This is the same
situation as English.

In legal texts, the time of day is never used, only dates are specified and
they are inclusive (e.g. a new "commune" may be created on 1st January, the
legal text specifies the start day at it is implicitly at starting at
00:00; the same text specifies that older communes will end at the same
time; in most cases those legal texts are using starting dates that fall at
start of year or during a legal non-working or on monday when public
services are closed).

For contracts that need exact time working also on non-working days (e.g.
electronic transactions), timestamps are specified only numerically, never
by a sentence. For other dated contracts only dates are used inclusively so
that they inlcude at least the normal working time of signatories. When
there are organisations or people still working at midnight (shops,
restaurants...) the legal records contain only numeric timestamps (e.g.
billing tickets printed for their sales).

However "midnight" or "minuit" is definitely not a "day period", except in
fuzzy expressions like "This happened in the night between Sunday D and
Monday D+1, around mindight", where two dates are specified. If you wanted
to convert this to a numeric timestamp, it would be "D+1 00:00" or could be
a fuzzy date range such as "D 23:45 - D+1 00:15" specifying a rough
half-hour, or up to "D 23:00 - D+1 01:00" within a range of two hours. But
thjat "day period" is completely unspecified and left to contextual
interpretations.

2016-01-22 7:40 GMT+01:00 Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>:

> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I just
> recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent
> about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>
> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and
> CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world
> wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the
> more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some
> such), the better.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
>
>> Dear CLDR users,
>>
>> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B
>> for
>> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>>
>> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to 0:00,
>> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
>> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at
>> least
>> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
>> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
>> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>>
>> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use of
>> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
>> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>>
>> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove "midnight"
>> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
>> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> kz
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
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From verdy_p at wanadoo.fr  Fri Jan 22 06:33:32 2016
From: verdy_p at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Verdy)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:33:32 +0100
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <CA+5fHtJZTCt98TTr+NA69fLf_dNOr9J8nR8NU=k1eVjsGFpdmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+5fHtJZTCt98TTr+NA69fLf_dNOr9J8nR8NU=k1eVjsGFpdmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGa7JC1jrM-OWX8_mDRviC5zW8N88tO4eD6avivU3OxOwLpbkw@mail.gmail.com>

Because of leap seconds or the precision needed for the last minute our
second of the day, it is admitted to specidy a valid time "24:00" for
specifying the end of a day. Most legal texts however avoid specifying
ending dates, they specfiy the start date (and optional time, 00:00 is then
implicit) after which something has changed.
For monthly or weekly billing periods, it is customary to specify the
ending date of the period, no time is given, the last day is of the month
or week taken inclusively (up to 24:00).
Using "23:59" or "23:59:59" or "23:59:60" should be avoided when you mean
the end of the day

(note that "23:59:60" is perfectly valid but NOT equivalent to "24:00" at
end of every month with a extra leap second, so "23:59:60.00" is still one
second before the end of that day which occurs just before
"23:59:61.000"="24:00";
those leap seconds may happen at end of June or December on some years).

2016-01-22 9:12 GMT+01:00 Jon Skeet <skeet at pobox.com>:

> Just as one extra wrinkle, if we define "midnight" to be "the time that
> one day becomes another", it doesn't always happen at 00:00. If we define
> it to be 00:00, it doesn't always occur.
> I'm basically thinking about time zones (e.g. Brazil) which "spring
> forward" at what would have been midnight, e.g.
>
> 23:59:58
> 23:59:59
> 01:00:00
> 01:00:01
>
> Depending on your definition of midnight, it either doesn't happen or it
> happens at 01:00. (Fortunately I don't *think* there are any examples
> where 00:00 occurs twice due to fall-back rules, although I wouldn't be
> surprised.)
>
> I'm not saying this is something we should fall out specifically - but
> it's something we should be aware of when considering using the term
> "midnight".
>
> Jon
>
>
> On 22 January 2016 at 07:57, Mark Davis ?? <mark at macchiato.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it really depends on context. I think the following, for example,
>> refer to the same time, the instant between Tuesday and Wednesday.
>>
>>    - Wednesday, I was wide awake from midnight to 5am.
>>    - Tuesday, the party lasted from 7pm to midnight.
>>
>> The context of a range makes it clear what was meant.
>>
>> I'm ok with holding back on using midnight, except when
>>
>>    1. there is a word for midnight in the locale that (predominantly)
>>    means the start of the day (00:00).
>>    2. in time intervals (where the context is then clear enough).
>>    However, see below.
>>
>> Normally, date-time software views time-periods as half-open intervals.
>> For example, the first hour of a day is from 00:00 to 00:59:59.9..., a day
>> is from 00:00 to 23:59:59.9999..., a year is until Dec 31,
>> 23:59:59.9999..., and so on.
>>
>> #2 is connected with a separate ticket which is to allow for the
>> time-of-day to be *formatted* as being 24:00 or after. The primary use
>> case for that is to allow time intervals (eg for opening hours) to span
>> midnight, which are used in some countries, such as:
>>
>> Wednesday 18:00 ? 25:00
>>
>>
>> However, it could also allow for the use of a term "midnight" for 24:00,
>> where that is the most natural expression.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Martin J. D?rst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion, "could be confusing" is a gross understatement :-(. I
>>> just recently wanted to submit some abstracts to a conference where I spent
>>> about 10 minutes to figure out which end of a day the actual deadline was.
>>>
>>> While there may be conventions for such things in some communities, and
>>> CLDR has an ambition to follow them, it's highly confusing in the world
>>> wide context of the web. The less such things are made defaults, and the
>>> more exact terms are used (e.g. "midnight at the start of the day" or some
>>> such), the better.
>>>
>>> Regards,    Martin.
>>>
>>> On 2016/01/22 10:30, kz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear CLDR users,
>>>>
>>>> I'm currently trying to implement in ICU the pattern characters b and B
>>>> for
>>>> datetime formatting, which involves the use of the word "midnight". See
>>>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Day_Period_Rules .
>>>>
>>>> Currently, according to the CLDR spec, the word "midnight" refers to
>>>> 0:00,
>>>> i.e. the beginning of the day. However, after a conversation with my
>>>> colleagues, we feel that it's more natural for "midnight" to mean, at
>>>> least
>>>> in English, the end of the day. For example, "Wednesday midnight" would
>>>> refer to midnight of Wednesday-Thursday, not the midnight of
>>>> Tuesday-Wednesday. This could cause confusion to users.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, other languages could have different problems with the use
>>>> of
>>>> "midnight". For example, Chinese has two different words for "midnight
>>>> (beginning of day)" (*lingchen*) and "midnight (end of day)" (*wuye*).
>>>>
>>>> As such, it'd probably be worth discussing to either (1) remove
>>>> "midnight"
>>>> as a time period, (2) use a different word for "midnight", or (3) modify
>>>> spec to have "midnight" refer to the end of the day.
>>>>
>>>> Any opinions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> kz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CLDR-Users mailing list
>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
>
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From doug at ewellic.org  Fri Jan 22 10:56:50 2016
From: doug at ewellic.org (Doug Ewell)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:56:50 -0700
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
Message-ID: <20160122095650.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.f913e342d3.wbe@email03.secureserver.net>

Mark Davis wrote:

> What I think we could do is change records like the following (NB
> "midnight" is an ID):
>
>    <dayPeriod type="midnight">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>
> to:
>
>    <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>    <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>

I'm guessing one of those was supposed to be "midnight-eod".

--
Doug Ewell | http://ewellic.org | Thornton, CO ????



From mark at macchiato.com  Fri Jan 22 11:07:50 2016
From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:07:50 +0100
Subject: Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day could be
 confusing
In-Reply-To: <20160122095650.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.f913e342d3.wbe@email03.secureserver.net>
References: <20160122095650.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.f913e342d3.wbe@email03.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_G_B=57sPJF2Yp2y63xWdKtqf_mcFBZnPxoF3r4aui_hw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, sorry for the (exceedingly confusing) typo!

Mark

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Doug Ewell <doug at ewellic.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis wrote:
>
> > What I think we could do is change records like the following (NB
> > "midnight" is an ID):
> >
> >    <dayPeriod type="midnight">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
> >
> > to:
> >
> >    <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
> >    <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>
> I'm guessing one of those was supposed to be "midnight-eod".
>
> --
> Doug Ewell | http://ewellic.org | Thornton, CO ????
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CLDR-Users mailing list
> CLDR-Users at unicode.org
> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users
>
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From markus.icu at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 11:50:31 2016
From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:50:31 -0800
Subject: [icu-core] Using "midnight" to mean the beginning of the day
 could be confusing
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2xs_GopnGAO253DvbYShEsaaO9-NNty6rAO+cXaGzq1SEMwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAbDKFAzRseNyeNX6iK2E03KxX=GcCSWQ89XwPeDsKoXSc1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A1CED2.1020701@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_F9GmHpT25QbaoDc7+m4EY3Sbj+uqRfGVEv_Fq_apv4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB20452C73AFA08923EE9EBDB982C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <56A1F726.70702@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
 <CAJ2xs_GE7AduGqb4UY++gZxr1SrVkz7kiSfuQsXHM_GMTzLH5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <SN1PR0301MB2045A0E34C6A7B7881B992F082C40@SN1PR0301MB2045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAJ2xs_GopnGAO253DvbYShEsaaO9-NNty6rAO+cXaGzq1SEMwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN49p6r_RUUnf+j=-2m6X5E=J8VMDFiMDeeyxtLgMfEt2PE2EA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:04 AM, Mark Davis ?? <mark at macchiato.com> wrote:

> What I think we could do is change records like the following (NB
> "midnight" is an ID):
>
>    <dayPeriod type="midnight">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>
> to:
>
>    <dayPeriod type="midnight-sod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>    <dayPeriod type="midnight-eod">Mitternacht</dayPeriod>
>
> Then ask translators to change these to be distinct, but only where there
> are different possible customary terms.
>
> Once this is done, in software, if they are the same we can suppress them
> in an ambiguous context, and show them where it is clear. (Of course, under
> the control of the formatting pattern.)
>
This sounds reasonable.

If we are stuck with the existing type="midnight" selector, then we could
add a type="midnight0", like there is morning1 & morning2.

I would expect
    <dayPeriodRule type="midnight" at="0:00"/>
to change to
    <dayPeriodRule type="midnight0" at="0:00"/>
    <dayPeriodRule type="midnight" at="24:00"/>

where both make sense (e.g., Chinese),
and I would expect that a lot of locales (e.g., German & English) would use
"the new midnight" (end of day) but not midnight0 (start of day).

In ICU, we would probably not format the midnight-at-end-of-day until we
figure out a way for a user to request Tuesday 24:00 as opposed to
Wednesday 0:00.

markus
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From mark at macchiato.com  Fri Jan 22 12:06:00 2016
From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:06:00 +0100
Subject: Adding annotations
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_FANV25B7QZZ2VL4QwoPnhL4J3d5Twu389CuBywOeRd0Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm adding the translated annotations, which are pushing up the figures a
bit.

newItems 9.56%
deletedItems 1.47%
changedItems 2.98%
unchanged 85.99%

The rise in deleted items are because we used to have annotations for the
flags, but those have been dropped in favor of just using the country names.

Mark
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