From patrick.andries at xcential.com Fri May 1 12:45:15 2015 From: patrick.andries at xcential.com (Patrick Andries) Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 13:45:15 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> About : http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=fr (Date & Time Patterns) It has been a long time since I thought I should mention that I find the time patterns for French a bit too simplistic and English-like. Well, it really depends what the patterns are used for. I wonder how CLDR could offer more flexibility to French localizers so that they could easily use different time formats from the current ones, if they so wish. "Traditional French time patterns", let me call them. For hours indicated on schedules (in front of churches, on train time table, on a log, in correspondence, etc.), the recommended way is to write "10 h 20" or "23 h 15", for instance. My spell checker (Antidote) always reminds me of this when I quote an email message and suggests me to change English styled times (12:34) into French styled times (12 h 34). It is a bit different for running time displayed very quickly to show, for instance, the precise elapsed time. There, we have got accustomed to formats like 18:28:38,8365 (best with a comma decimal separator), but it is not the original French format (see below). Admittedly, not all sources agree on the precise usage (zero suppression for instance and what to do when seconds are mentioned). But here is an overview of some typographical style guides : Sources : See "heure" entry in Lexique des r?gles typographiques en usage ? l'Imprimerie nationale (Paris, France). "Le train de 8 h 47". I can quote more from/scan the page if necessary. See entries "402 Dur?e" (4 h 04) "412 Heure" (8 h 17, 11 h, 0 h 15, 17 h 07' 02'' zero suppressed in duration it says there : 93 h 3 ' 8'') in Guide du typographe roman (Lausanne, Switzerland). See entry "?critures des heures" in Le Ramat de la typographie (Saint-Lambert, Qu?bec, Canada). Usage is to use "h" with hours every time date is written in letters : le 1er mai 1997 ? 16 h 05". Suggests writing 06:00 or even 0600 for time tables (air plane leaving at such a time). For durations: 6 h 5 min (with the leading zero suppressed). See http://reseauaffairesplus.com/francisation/regles-d-usage/redaction/-criture_de_l-heure-.html See SNCF (French Railways) : http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-train/horaires, although it is missing a space before and after the "h". But are computer generated strings a reference ? ;-) I only mention this very popular web site to show that this usage is alive and not "obsolete". Patrick --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iiaijeac.png Type: image/png Size: 50762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From srl at icu-project.org Fri May 1 12:53:30 2015 From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 10:53:30 -0700 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> Message-ID: Patrick, some good comments, if it does not get traction on this list please file a cldr bug thanks. Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > El may 1, 2015, a las 10:45 AM, Patrick Andries escribi?: > > About : http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=fr (Date & Time Patterns) > > It has been a long time since I thought I should mention that I find the time patterns for French a bit too simplistic and English-like. > > Well, it really depends what the patterns are used for. I wonder how CLDR could offer more flexibility to French localizers so that they could easily use different time formats from the current ones, if they so wish. "Traditional French time patterns", let me call them. > > For hours indicated on schedules (in front of churches, on train time table, on a log, in correspondence, etc.), the recommended way is to write "10 h 20" or "23 h 15", for instance. My spell checker (Antidote) always reminds me of this when I quote an email message and suggests me to change English styled times (12:34) into French styled times (12 h 34). > > It is a bit different for running time displayed very quickly to show, for instance, the precise elapsed time. There, we have got accustomed to formats like 18:28:38,8365 (best with a comma decimal separator), but it is not the original French format (see below). > > Admittedly, not all sources agree on the precise usage (zero suppression for instance and what to do when seconds are mentioned). > > But here is an overview of some typographical style guides : > Sources : > > See "heure" entry in Lexique des r?gles typographiques en usage ? l'Imprimerie nationale (Paris, France). "Le train de 8 h 47". I can quote more from/scan the page if necessary. > > See entries "402 Dur?e" (4 h 04) "412 Heure" (8 h 17, 11 h, 0 h 15, 17 h 07' 02'' zero suppressed in duration it says there : 93 h 3 ' 8'') in Guide du typographe roman (Lausanne, Switzerland). > > See entry "?critures des heures" in Le Ramat de la typographie (Saint-Lambert, Qu?bec, Canada). Usage is to use "h" with hours every time date is written in letters : le 1er mai 1997 ? 16 h 05". Suggests writing 06:00 or even 0600 for time tables (air plane leaving at such a time). For durations: 6 h 5 min (with the leading zero suppressed). > > See http://reseauaffairesplus.com/francisation/regles-d-usage/redaction/-criture_de_l-heure-.html > > See SNCF (French Railways) : http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-train/horaires, although it is missing a space before and after the "h". But are computer generated strings a reference ? ;-) I only mention this very popular web site to show that this usage is alive and not "obsolete". > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iiaijeac.png Type: image/png Size: 50762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From patrick.andries at xcential.com Tue May 5 01:00:52 2015 From: patrick.andries at xcential.com (Patrick Andries) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 02:00:52 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> Message-ID: <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> I also noticed the usage of AM and PM here for French : http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#/fr/Gregorian/5c6d3896851453de This is not at all customary in French. This official reference in Quebec says that if the AM/PM need to be specified it should be *? du matin*? and ? de*l?apr?s-midi* ?. But this is more how one speaks than how one writes in official documents (which nearly always use the 24 hour clock). http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?th=2&id=1516 http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=2718 P. A. Le 01/mai/2015 13:53, Steven R. Loomis a ?crit : > Patrick, some good comments, if it does not get traction on this list > please file a cldr bug thanks. > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 1, 2015, a las 10:45 AM, Patrick Andries > > > escribi?: > >> About : http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=fr (Date & >> Time Patterns) >> >> It has been a long time since I thought I should mention that I find >> the time patterns for French a bit too simplistic and English-like. >> >> Well, it really depends what the patterns are used for. I wonder how >> CLDR could offer more flexibility to French localizers so that they >> could easily use different time formats from the current ones, if >> they so wish. "Traditional French time patterns", let me call them. >> >> For hours indicated on schedules (in front of churches, on train time >> table, on a log, in correspondence, etc.), the recommended way is to >> write "10 h 20" or "23 h 15", for instance. My spell checker >> (Antidote) always reminds me of this when I quote an email message >> and suggests me to change English styled times (12:34) into French >> styled times (12 h 34). >> >> It is a bit different for running time displayed very quickly to >> show, for instance, the precise elapsed time. There, we have got >> accustomed to formats like 18:28:38,8365 (best with a comma decimal >> separator), but it is not the original French format (see below). >> >> Admittedly, not all sources agree on the precise usage (zero >> suppression for instance and what to do when seconds are mentioned). >> >> But here is an overview of some typographical style guides : >> Sources : >> >> See "heure" entry in Lexique des r?gles typographiques en usage ? >> l'Imprimerie nationale (Paris, France). "Le train de 8 h 47". I can >> quote more from/scan the page if necessary. >> >> See entries "402 Dur?e" (4 h 04) "412 Heure" (8 h 17, 11 h, 0 h 15, >> 17 h 07' 02'' zero suppressed in duration it says there : 93 h 3 ' >> 8'') in Guide du typographe roman (Lausanne, Switzerland). >> >> See entry "?critures des heures" in Le Ramat de la typographie >> (Saint-Lambert, Qu?bec, Canada). Usage is to use "h" with hours every >> time date is written in letters : le 1er mai 1997 ? 16 h 05". >> Suggests writing 06:00 or even 0600 for time tables (air plane >> leaving at such a time). For durations: 6 h 5 min (with the leading >> zero suppressed). >> >> See >> http://reseauaffairesplus.com/francisation/regles-d-usage/redaction/-criture_de_l-heure-.html >> >> See SNCF (French Railways) : >> http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-train/horaires, although it is >> missing a space before and after the "h". But are computer generated >> strings a reference ? ;-) I only mention this very popular web site >> to show that this usage is alive and not "obsolete". >> >> Patrick >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Avast logo >> >> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par >> le logiciel antivirus Avast. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at macchiato.com Tue May 5 07:52:40 2015 From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 14:52:40 +0200 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> Message-ID: Those are good comments. Very briefly, what is there for French should be the most common, customary form; if not, we should change it. We could also offer different formats for time and date ('alt' forms). However, our immediate target is programmer APIs, since that is how these formats will be selected and eventually shown to users. That means that the options have to make sense across languages, since few programs will want to be littered with specialized calls. People don't want to see in their code the equivalent of "if it is French and I'm displaying in a train station, use ALT5, while if it is Kazakh and I'm displaying in a movie theater use ALT3, ..." We faced a similar problem with casing, and ended up developing the casing context. Rolling that out has taken many releases, so we're still not done with that. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but rather that we haven't yet got a good model for how to make the work that would go into alternate forms be useful. As far as the am/pm goes, we are rolling out new dayperiod support. It is targetted mostly at languages that use different periods than AM/PM or 24 hour, but there is support for longer or shorter forms. Cf. http://cldr.unicode.org/translation/date-time-names#TOC-Day-Periods-AM-and-PM- Mark *? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?* On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Patrick Andries < patrick.andries at xcential.com> wrote: > I also noticed the usage of AM and PM here for French : > http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#/fr/Gregorian/5c6d3896851453de > > This is not at all customary in French. > > This official reference in Quebec says that if the AM/PM need to be > specified it should be *? du matin* ? and ? de* l?apr?s-midi* ?. But > this is more how one speaks than how one writes in official documents > (which nearly always use the 24 hour clock). > > http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?th=2&id=1516 > http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=2718 > > P. A. > > > > Le 01/mai/2015 13:53, Steven R. Loomis a ?crit : > > Patrick, some good comments, if it does not get traction on this list > please file a cldr bug thanks. > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 1, 2015, a las 10:45 AM, Patrick Andries < > patrick.andries at xcential.com> escribi?: > > About : http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=fr (Date & > Time Patterns) > > It has been a long time since I thought I should mention that I find the > time patterns for French a bit too simplistic and English-like. > > Well, it really depends what the patterns are used for. I wonder how CLDR > could offer more flexibility to French localizers so that they could easily > use different time formats from the current ones, if they so wish. > "Traditional French time patterns", let me call them. > > For hours indicated on schedules (in front of churches, on train time > table, on a log, in correspondence, etc.), the recommended way is to write > "10 h 20" or "23 h 15", for instance. My spell checker (Antidote) always > reminds me of this when I quote an email message and suggests me to change > English styled times (12:34) into French styled times (12 h 34). > > It is a bit different for running time displayed very quickly to show, for > instance, the precise elapsed time. There, we have got accustomed to > formats like 18:28:38,8365 (best with a comma decimal separator), but it is > not the original French format (see below). > > Admittedly, not all sources agree on the precise usage (zero suppression > for instance and what to do when seconds are mentioned). > > But here is an overview of some typographical style guides : > Sources : > > See "heure" entry in Lexique des r?gles typographiques en usage ? > l'Imprimerie nationale (Paris, France). "Le train de 8 h 47". I can quote > more from/scan the page if necessary. > > See entries "402 Dur?e" (4 h 04) "412 Heure" (8 h 17, 11 h, 0 h 15, 17 h > 07' 02'' zero suppressed in duration it says there : 93 h 3 ' 8'') in Guide > du typographe roman (Lausanne, Switzerland). > > See entry "?critures des heures" in Le Ramat de la typographie > (Saint-Lambert, Qu?bec, Canada). Usage is to use "h" with hours every time > date is written in letters : le 1er mai 1997 ? 16 h 05". Suggests writing > 06:00 or even 0600 for time tables (air plane leaving at such a time). For > durations: 6 h 5 min (with the leading zero suppressed). > > See > http://reseauaffairesplus.com/francisation/regles-d-usage/redaction/-criture_de_l-heure-.html > > See SNCF (French Railways) : > http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-train/horaires, although it is missing > a space before and after the "h". But are computer generated strings a > reference ? ;-) I only mention this very popular web site to show that this > usage is alive and not "obsolete". > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le > logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le > logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ehoogerbeets at gmail.com Tue May 5 12:24:30 2015 From: ehoogerbeets at gmail.com (Edwin Hoogerbeets) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:24:30 -0700 Subject: Day Periods (was Re: Additional French Time Patterns ?) In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> Message-ID: <5548FCCE.5090304@gmail.com> Speaking of the day period support, the UTS #35 specification does not make it clear whether the start/end times are in the local time zone or UTC time, and whether or not they use the local time system/calendar or the Gregorian time system/calendar. From the looks of it, they are in local time and in the Gregorian time system. Now that I think of it, it would be pretty silly to specify it in UTC, but what I am asking for is that the spec be amended to make this explicit and clear, instead of an implicit assumption. When I say "local time system/calendar" vs. "Gregorian time system", what I am talking about is Ethiopic times which are also 12-hour, but at different times of day than our regular Gregorian time system. The Ethiopic day starts at sunrise, which is right about 6:00am Gregorian time. Being near the equator, this doesn't vary much in Ethiopia. So, 12:00 morning Ethiopic = 06:00 Gregorian, and 6:00noon Ethiopic = 12:00 Gregorian, 12:00evening Ethiopic = 18:00 Gregorian, etc. For consistency and ease of implementation, I think the day periods in CLDR should always be specified in Gregorian time as the single normalized form, and it should be up to the implementation of the date formatter to translate 06:00 Gregorian to "??? 12:00 " when formatting an Ethiopic date/time with the Ethiopic time system/calendar. Now having said that, the Gregorian calendar is sometimes used in Ethiopia as well, mostly when dealing with foreign companies or people so as not to confuse them, and the regular Gregorian AM/PM meridiems are generally used with Gregorian time formats. That is, the day periods are dependent on the calendaring system in use, just like the date formats already in CLDR. I think we should add a "calendar" attribute to the dayPeriodRuleSet or dayPeriodRule elements, with the default value when not specified being "gregorian". Or are day periods perhaps a separate concept from meridiems? Can we clarify the spec on these points? (And before you ask, yes, I have already submitted ticket #8473 to support am-ET in the day periods!) Thanks, Edwin On 05/05/2015 05:52 AM, Mark Davis ?? wrote: > > As far as the am/pm goes, we are rolling out new dayperiod support. It > is targetted mostly at languages that use different periods than AM/PM > or 24 hour, but there is support for longer or shorter forms. > Cf. http://cldr.unicode.org/translation/date-time-names#TOC-Day-Periods-AM-and-PM- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrick.andries at xcential.com Tue May 5 12:54:51 2015 From: patrick.andries at xcential.com (Patrick Andries) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 13:54:51 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> Message-ID: <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> I believe the current short form (HH:mm) in French is not the most common. Typographical reference books and common good quality web sites (French railways for instance) attest to it. I also queried a little bit around and I tend to agree with these formats, sent to me by a colleague, as the French modern default : ? * 12 h 54 s'il n'y a pas de secondes (usage tr?s courant) ; * 12:54:02[,123] avec les secondes [et fraction] (usage plus technique). ? The medium form would thus be left untouched (HH:mm:ss). It would be nice if alternate formats could be supported, but if the short form can be modified this would be less of an issue. As far as the am/pm notation is concerned, as long as the strings "am" and "pm" are not displayed in French, I'm fine. I'm afraid of them creeping up by default. I suspect the longer forms (du matin/de l'apr?s-midi/du soir), once known and available to programmers will be useful in French. (Although Locale-Specific Periods may be difficult to get perfectly right: the notion of "night" may depend on the sun having set and thus vary according to the seasons and the latitude ;-) Let me reassure you, I'm not asking for those to be taken into account.) P. A. Le 05/mai/2015 08:52, Mark Davis ?? a ?crit : > Those are good comments. Very briefly, what is there for French should > be the most common, customary form; if not, we should change it. We > could also offer different formats for time and date ('alt' forms). > However, our immediate target is programmer APIs, since that is how > these formats will be selected and eventually shown to users. That > means that the options have to make sense across languages, since few > programs will want to be littered with specialized calls. People don't > want to see in their code the equivalent of "if it is French and I'm > displaying in a train station, use ALT5, while if it is Kazakh and I'm > displaying in a movie theater use ALT3, ..." > > We faced a similar problem with casing, and ended up developing the > casing context. Rolling that out has taken many releases, so we're > still not done with that. > > I'm not saying that it can't be done, but rather that we haven't yet > got a good model for how to make the work that would go into alternate > forms be useful. > > As far as the am/pm goes, we are rolling out new dayperiod support. It > is targetted mostly at languages that use different periods than AM/PM > or 24 hour, but there is support for longer or shorter forms. Cf. > http://cldr.unicode.org/translation/date-time-names#TOC-Day-Periods-AM-and-PM- > > > Mark > / > / > /? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?/ > // > > On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Patrick Andries > > > wrote: > > I also noticed the usage of AM and PM here for French : > http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#/fr/Gregorian/5c6d3896851453de > > This is not at all customary in French. > > This official reference in Quebec says that if the AM/PM need to > be specified it should be *? du matin*? and ? de*l?apr?s-midi* ?. > But this is more how one speaks than how one writes in official > documents (which nearly always use the 24 hour clock). > > http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?th=2&id=1516 > http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=2718 > > P. A. > > > > Le 01/mai/2015 13:53, Steven R. Loomis a ?crit : >> Patrick, some good comments, if it does not get traction on this >> list please file a cldr bug thanks. >> >> Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. >> >> El may 1, 2015, a las 10:45 AM, Patrick Andries >> > > escribi?: >> >>> About : http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/locexp?d_=en&_=fr >>> (Date & Time Patterns) >>> >>> It has been a long time since I thought I should mention that I >>> find the time patterns for French a bit too simplistic and >>> English-like. >>> >>> Well, it really depends what the patterns are used for. I wonder >>> how CLDR could offer more flexibility to French localizers so >>> that they could easily use different time formats from the >>> current ones, if they so wish. "Traditional French time >>> patterns", let me call them. >>> >>> For hours indicated on schedules (in front of churches, on train >>> time table, on a log, in correspondence, etc.), the recommended >>> way is to write "10 h 20" or "23 h 15", for instance. My spell >>> checker (Antidote) always reminds me of this when I quote an >>> email message and suggests me to change English styled times >>> (12:34) into French styled times (12 h 34). >>> >>> It is a bit different for running time displayed very quickly to >>> show, for instance, the precise elapsed time. There, we have got >>> accustomed to formats like 18:28:38,8365 (best with a comma >>> decimal separator), but it is not the original French format >>> (see below). >>> >>> Admittedly, not all sources agree on the precise usage (zero >>> suppression for instance and what to do when seconds are mentioned). >>> >>> But here is an overview of some typographical style guides : >>> Sources : >>> >>> See "heure" entry in Lexique des r?gles typographiques en usage >>> ? l'Imprimerie nationale (Paris, France). "Le train de 8 h 47". >>> I can quote more from/scan the page if necessary. >>> >>> See entries "402 Dur?e" (4 h 04) "412 Heure" (8 h 17, 11 h, 0 h >>> 15, 17 h 07' 02'' zero suppressed in duration it says there : 93 >>> h 3 ' 8'') in Guide du typographe roman (Lausanne, Switzerland). >>> >>> See entry "?critures des heures" in Le Ramat de la typographie >>> (Saint-Lambert, Qu?bec, Canada). Usage is to use "h" with hours >>> every time date is written in letters : le 1er mai 1997 ? 16 h >>> 05". Suggests writing 06:00 or even 0600 for time tables (air >>> plane leaving at such a time). For durations: 6 h 5 min (with >>> the leading zero suppressed). >>> >>> See >>> http://reseauaffairesplus.com/francisation/regles-d-usage/redaction/-criture_de_l-heure-.html >>> >>> See SNCF (French Railways) : >>> http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-train/horaires, although it >>> is missing a space before and after the "h". But are computer >>> generated strings a reference ? ;-) I only mention this very >>> popular web site to show that this usage is alive and not >>> "obsolete". >>> >>> Patrick >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Avast logo >>> >>> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e >>> par le logiciel antivirus Avast. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CLDR-Users mailing list >>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e > par le logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > Aucun virus trouv? dans ce message. > Analyse effectu?e par AVG - www.avg.fr > Version: 2015.0.5941 / Base de donn?es virale: 4339/9697 - Date: > 04/05/2015 > --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markus.icu at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:22:56 2015 From: markus.icu at gmail.com (Markus Scherer) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 11:22:56 -0700 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> Message-ID: As Steven said, you may want to submit a CLDR ticket for changing the French time format patterns. I wonder a little: If the form "12 h 54" is truly more common, why would the contributing organizations and survey tool contributors not have adopted that already? But I have personally no idea what is common in French, so will leave it to others. On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Patrick Andries < patrick.andries at xcential.com> wrote: > As far as the am/pm notation is concerned, as long as the strings "am" and > "pm" are not displayed in French, I'm fine. I'm afraid of them creeping up > by default. > Same as in German, and I am sure in many other languages. Where the 24-hour format is written exclusively, the am/pm strings are somewhat "made up". CLDR needs them in case someone forces 12-hour format. markus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berenger at enselme.com Tue May 5 13:37:42 2015 From: berenger at enselme.com (=?UTF-8?Q?B=C3=A9renger_Enselme?=) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 14:37:42 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> Message-ID: Hello, FWIW, that is not quite what the government of Canada recommends: http://www.bt-tb.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/btb.php?lang=fra&cont=1415 What the document says is that in technical settings, such as time tables, "15:10" is the preferred format, whereas it should be written "15 h 10" elsewhere (in texts for example). Cheers, B?ranger On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Markus Scherer wrote: > As Steven said, you may want to submit a CLDR ticket for changing the French > time format patterns. > > I wonder a little: If the form "12 h 54" is truly more common, why would the > contributing organizations and survey tool contributors not have adopted > that already? But I have personally no idea what is common in French, so > will leave it to others. > > On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Patrick Andries > wrote: >> >> As far as the am/pm notation is concerned, as long as the strings "am" and >> "pm" are not displayed in French, I'm fine. I'm afraid of them creeping up >> by default. > > > Same as in German, and I am sure in many other languages. Where the 24-hour > format is written exclusively, the am/pm strings are somewhat "made up". > CLDR needs them in case someone forces 12-hour format. > > markus > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > From patrick.andries at xcential.com Tue May 5 13:49:29 2015 From: patrick.andries at xcential.com (Patrick Andries) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 14:49:29 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> Message-ID: <554910B9.8010209@xcential.com> Le 05/mai/2015 14:22, Markus Scherer a ?crit : > As Steven said, you may want to submit a CLDR ticket for changing the > French time format patterns. I will do that. But I thought a bit of debate and input from various people may help... > > I wonder a little: If the form "12 h 54" is truly more common, Well, ? common ? may depend on what you look at. It is certainly the way style guides generally recommend formatting hours. Now the "hh:mm" format is creeping at more and more places because of computers and electronic devices imposing this format, but I thought CLDR was about improving the situation born out of a single format being imposed to all... I was trying to find a compromise between the ? technical ? American notation (":") and a traditional notation (with "h"). Compromise because we are forced to specify defaults for all usages. > why would the contributing organizations and survey tool contributors > not have adopted that already? But I have personally no idea what is > common in French, so will leave it to others. > Which contributing organizations really worry about French short time formats ? If you look at ISO 8859-1, the presence of French speaking experts did not preclude the omission of ? ??, ? ? ? and ? ? ?... Hence ISO 8859-15. P. A. --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrick.andries at xcential.com Tue May 5 14:43:39 2015 From: patrick.andries at xcential.com (Patrick Andries) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 15:43:39 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> Message-ID: <55491D6B.5080709@xcential.com> Le 5 mai 2015 ? 14 h 37, B?renger Enselme a ?crit : > Hello, > > FWIW, that is not quite what the government of Canada recommends: > http://www.bt-tb.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/btb.php?lang=fra&cont=1415 > > What the document says is that in technical settings, such as time > tables, "15:10" is the preferred format, whereas it should be written > "15 h 10" elsewhere (in texts for example). This is indeed what Ramat says (I quoted him as my Canadian style guide) for time tables. But it is not the only way to write time tables. In fact, I don't recall this ":" notation in European French before computers started printing time tables for the public. In old paper ? Indicateur des chemins de fer ? (train schedules) in France, the separator between hours and minutes was in fact often a space... Most of the rest of the time, just a period : "12.32" as in the two links below for Belgium. The space or period convention were (are ?) also used in the Netherlands. This being said, recently train schedules in Belgium are using the default American styled ":" , but notice in the picture below how the delay is written with the 'h' notation (+0h26 in red)... http://www.sudinfo.be/sites/default/files/imagecache/pagallery_450x300/126036156_ID7008682_sncb_132431_H3GHYN_0.JPG Spaces and periods as common separators in Time tables in French speaking Europe : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Indicateur_SG_1926_-_07c_-_CGB_Etampes-Arpajon.JPG/280px-Indicateur_SG_1926_-_07c_-_CGB_Etampes-Arpajon.JPG (French, space) http://ligne130a.blogs.dhnet.be/media/02/00/1874081299.JPG (Belgian) http://users.skynet.be/agpym/images/B42.JPG (Belgian, interesting also because the month is displayed as I learned it : Roman numerals to distinguish from days) The problem is one of context. Ramat also says that if the day of the week appears in full then the "h" notation should be used: "mercredi 13 h 15" thus. Now this is what Ramat and the Public Works of Canada site say, but the Quebec government site officially dealing with the French language says that the general format is "HH ' h ' mm" but it may **sometimes** be represented, for instance, in time tables as HH:mm. ?L'heure peut *parfois *?tre repr?sent?e de fa?on enti?rement num?rique, par exemple dans les horaires des gares ou des a?roports. On se sert alors des deux-points pour s?parer les heures et les minutes. ? http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?t1=1&id=1516 This would suggest to me that the default is HH ' h ' mm and in some contexts (? sometimes ?) HH:mm. But, arguably, this is debatable in a Canadian context. Other style guides (French and Swiss) don't even mention at all the ':' format, they only speak about the format with an ' h ' as separator. The ' 20 h 15' format is quite common for schedules in Europe. Film festival schedules : https://lesnuitsduchasseurdefilms.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/festival-cinema-venezuelien_horaires.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XyRuxVo9c9c/T3BPEI4w0qI/AAAAAAAAAeI/4lR2lMtRyek/s640/2.png Library : http://www.les-horaires.fr/image_horaires_760268.png Cinema/Movie theatre : http://www.etoile-cinemas.com/lilas/evenement/prog_Mon_P_tit_Cine_saison_5.jpg Bus : http://www.busratp.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/horaires-bus-30-paris2.png http://www.busratp.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/horaires-bus-28-ratp1.png P. A. --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berenger at enselme.com Tue May 5 15:04:54 2015 From: berenger at enselme.com (=?UTF-8?Q?B=C3=A9renger_Enselme?=) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 16:04:54 -0400 Subject: Additional French Time Patterns ? In-Reply-To: <55491D6B.5080709@xcential.com> References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> <55491D6B.5080709@xcential.com> Message-ID: Well that was thorough ! You are right, the default should be with " h " as a separator, but it won't look pretty in time tables: notice how the spaces around the "h" are omitted in the schedules you posted. But still, " h " is the best in my opinion. We've has complaints about the ":" separator in the python babel project too... Thanks, B?ranger On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Patrick Andries < patrick.andries at xcential.com> wrote: > > Le 5 mai 2015 ? 14 h 37, B?renger Enselme a ?crit : > > Hello, > > FWIW, that is not quite what the government of Canada recommends:http://www.bt-tb.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/btb.php?lang=fra&cont=1415 > > What the document says is that in technical settings, such as time > tables, "15:10" is the preferred format, whereas it should be written > "15 h 10" elsewhere (in texts for example). > > > This is indeed what Ramat says (I quoted him as my Canadian style guide) > for time tables. But it is not the only way to write time tables. In fact, > I don't recall this ":" notation in European French before computers > started printing time tables for the public. In old paper ? Indicateur des > chemins de fer ? (train schedules) in France, the separator between hours > and minutes was in fact often a space... Most of the rest of the time, just > a period : "12.32" as in the two links below for Belgium. The space or > period convention were (are ?) also used in the Netherlands. > > This being said, recently train schedules in Belgium are using the default > American styled ":" , but notice in the picture below how the delay is > written with the 'h' notation (+0h26 in red)... > > > http://www.sudinfo.be/sites/default/files/imagecache/pagallery_450x300/126036156_ID7008682_sncb_132431_H3GHYN_0.JPG > > Spaces and periods as common separators in Time tables in French speaking > Europe : > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Indicateur_SG_1926_-_07c_-_CGB_Etampes-Arpajon.JPG/280px-Indicateur_SG_1926_-_07c_-_CGB_Etampes-Arpajon.JPG > (French, space) > http://ligne130a.blogs.dhnet.be/media/02/00/1874081299.JPG (Belgian) > http://users.skynet.be/agpym/images/B42.JPG (Belgian, interesting also > because the month is displayed as I learned it : Roman numerals to > distinguish from days) > > The problem is one of context. Ramat also says that if the day of the week > appears in full then the "h" notation should be used: "mercredi 13 h 15" > thus. > > Now this is what Ramat and the Public Works of Canada site say, but the > Quebec government site officially dealing with the French language says > that the general format is "HH ' h ' mm" but it may **sometimes** be > represented, for instance, in time tables as HH:mm. > > ?L'heure peut *parfois *?tre repr?sent?e de fa?on enti?rement num?rique, > par exemple dans les horaires des gares ou des a?roports. On se sert alors > des deux-points pour s?parer les heures et les minutes. ? > > http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?t1=1&id=1516 > > This would suggest to me that the default is HH ' h ' mm and in some > contexts (? sometimes ?) HH:mm. But, arguably, this is debatable in a > Canadian context. > > Other style guides (French and Swiss) don't even mention at all the ':' > format, they only speak about the format with an ' h ' as separator. > > The ' 20 h 15' format is quite common for schedules in Europe. > > Film festival schedules : > > > https://lesnuitsduchasseurdefilms.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/festival-cinema-venezuelien_horaires.jpg > > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XyRuxVo9c9c/T3BPEI4w0qI/AAAAAAAAAeI/4lR2lMtRyek/s640/2.png > > Library : > > http://www.les-horaires.fr/image_horaires_760268.png > > Cinema/Movie theatre : > > > http://www.etoile-cinemas.com/lilas/evenement/prog_Mon_P_tit_Cine_saison_5.jpg > > Bus : > > http://www.busratp.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/horaires-bus-30-paris2.png > http://www.busratp.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/horaires-bus-28-ratp1.png > > > > > P. A. > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le > logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:35:19 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:05:19 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes Message-ID: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? From shervinafshar at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:13:47 2015 From: shervinafshar at gmail.com (Shervin Afshar) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:13:47 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> Message-ID: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be > removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:17:53 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:47:53 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the > resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they > be removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shervinafshar at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:22:59 2015 From: shervinafshar at gmail.com (Shervin Afshar) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:22:59 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: They will not be removed. They will be in the data file as "provisional". ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn > repos or not? > > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution > rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > >> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be >> removed? >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:47:37 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 08:17:37 +0430 Subject: HTTPS Access Message-ID: <555177D9.5090606@gmail.com> Will be a HTTPS access for ST and main domain? From srl at icu-project.org Mon May 11 23:46:45 2015 From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:46:45 -0700 Subject: HTTPS Access In-Reply-To: <555177D9.5090606@gmail.com> References: <555177D9.5090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not at present. Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > El may 11, 2015, a las 8:47 PM, Mjbmr escribi?: > > Will be a HTTPS access for ST and main domain? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:48:14 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 09:18:14 +0430 Subject: HTTPS Access In-Reply-To: References: <555177D9.5090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5551860E.4000702@gmail.com> Our people from Iran are worried about their safety. On 5/12/2015 9:16 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > Not at present. > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 11, 2015, a las 8:47 PM, Mjbmr > escribi?: > >> Will be a HTTPS access for ST and main domain? >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Tue May 12 00:27:06 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 09:57:06 +0430 Subject: Find Reported Tickets Message-ID: <55518F2A.6090902@gmail.com> Is there any way to find all my reported tickets at trac? From mjbmri at gmail.com Tue May 12 00:29:35 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 09:59:35 +0430 Subject: Find Reported Tickets In-Reply-To: <55518F2A.6090902@gmail.com> References: <55518F2A.6090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55518FBF.9080400@gmail.com> I found it, never mind. On 5/12/2015 9:57 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > Is there any way to find all my reported tickets at trac? From srloomis at us.ibm.com Tue May 12 00:33:56 2015 From: srloomis at us.ibm.com (Steven R Loomis) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 22:33:56 -0700 Subject: Find Reported Tickets In-Reply-To: <55518F2A.6090902@gmail.com> References: <55518F2A.6090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/query?reporter=~mjbmr&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&order=priority From: Mjbmr To: "cldr-users at unicode.org" Date: 05/11/2015 10:29 PM Subject: Find Reported Tickets Sent by: "CLDR-Users" Is there any way to find all my reported tickets at trac? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From srloomis at us.ibm.com Tue May 12 00:34:29 2015 From: srloomis at us.ibm.com (Steven R Loomis) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 22:34:29 -0700 Subject: HTTPS Access In-Reply-To: <5551860E.4000702@gmail.com> References: <555177D9.5090606@gmail.com> <5551860E.4000702@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for explaining. From: Mjbmr To: "Steven R. Loomis" Cc: "cldr-users at unicode.org" Date: 05/11/2015 09:51 PM Subject: Re: HTTPS Access Sent by: "CLDR-Users" Our people from Iran are worried about their safety. On 5/12/2015 9:16 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: Not at present. Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 11, 2015, a las 8:47 PM, Mjbmr escribi?: Will be a HTTPS access for ST and main domain? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Tue May 12 08:06:08 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 17:36:08 +0430 Subject: Schwa Message-ID: <5551FAC0.2040105@gmail.com> Does anyone know what the equal for schwa in Arabic script? From roozbeh at unicode.org Tue May 12 09:32:48 2015 From: roozbeh at unicode.org (Roozbeh Pournader) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 07:32:48 -0700 Subject: Schwa In-Reply-To: <5551FAC0.2040105@gmail.com> References: <5551FAC0.2040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: Depends on the language. Pashto uses the zwarakay (U+0659) for example. Other languages use various other marks. On May 12, 2015 6:07 AM, "Mjbmr" wrote: > Does anyone know what the equal for schwa in Arabic script? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emmo at us.ibm.com Tue May 12 11:45:44 2015 From: emmo at us.ibm.com (John Emmons) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:45:44 -0500 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrick.andries at xcential.com Thu May 14 21:59:46 2015 From: patrick.andries at xcential.com (Patrick Andries) Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 22:59:46 -0400 Subject: Month as a Roman numeral ? Out of bounds? In-Reply-To: References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> <55491D6B.5080709@xcential.com> Message-ID: <55556122.80400@xcential.com> In Europe, months are sometimes specified as Roman Numerals. See today's photograph of a NATO Summit in Antalya (Turkey) : http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NUCbCaZssRU/VVNKTnKNEjI/AAAAAAAAEJ0/TAZvqkvp8K8/s640/66_default.jpg Or this bus schedule in Bavaria (in the upper left corner : ?Fallen der 24.XII. und 31.XII. auf Werktage? etc.) http://www.asamnet.de/~maschmid/Bilder/Fahrplan21.jpg This is actually how I learned to write dates at school. I'm not convinced whether this is something CLDR should deal with, it may actually be out of bounds. But how could one make this formatting easily available to localizers if they prefer months to be displayed in this way? Try to convince each of the Javascript/C#/Java/php, etc. normalization commitees to include a new pattern letter ('r'/'R' ?) for month as a roman numeral? How much does what the CLDR provide influence what the programming languages could implement later on? In other words, if a new symbol is added to , is there a better chance that programming langages will present users with the libraries/functions to use such symbol? Patrick --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. http://www.avast.com From mark at macchiato.com Thu May 14 22:35:36 2015 From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=) Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 20:35:36 -0700 Subject: Month as a Roman numeral ? Out of bounds? In-Reply-To: <55556122.80400@xcential.com> References: <5543BBAB.7060305@xcential.com> <55485C94.6060402@xcential.com> <554903EB.2000600@xcential.com> <55491D6B.5080709@xcential.com> <55556122.80400@xcential.com> Message-ID: Some languages already use this as standard, for the abbreviated form. We just list the explicit values. Mark *? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?* On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Patrick Andries < patrick.andries at xcential.com> wrote: > > In Europe, months are sometimes specified as Roman Numerals. > > See today's photograph of a NATO Summit in Antalya (Turkey) : > > > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NUCbCaZssRU/VVNKTnKNEjI/AAAAAAAAEJ0/TAZvqkvp8K8/s640/66_default.jpg > > Or this bus schedule in Bavaria (in the upper left corner : ?Fallen der > 24.XII. und 31.XII. auf Werktage? etc.) > > http://www.asamnet.de/~maschmid/Bilder/Fahrplan21.jpg > > This is actually how I learned to write dates at school. > > I'm not convinced whether this is something CLDR should deal with, it may > actually be out of bounds. > > But how could one make this formatting easily available to localizers if > they prefer months to be displayed in this way? Try to convince each of the > Javascript/C#/Java/php, etc. normalization commitees to include a new > pattern letter ('r'/'R' ?) for month as a roman numeral? How much does what > the CLDR provide influence what the programming languages could implement > later on? In other words, if a new symbol is added to < > http://cldr.unicode.org/translation/date-time>, is there a better chance > that programming langages will present users with the libraries/functions > to use such symbol? > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le > logiciel antivirus Avast. > http://www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sat May 16 12:29:42 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 21:59:42 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into > one of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will > stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 > votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be > draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is > specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are > the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like > German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are > required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different > organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve > disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items > that require a TC review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Mjbmr > To: Shervin Afshar > Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into > svn repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the > resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure_ > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be > removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ > __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shervinafshar at gmail.com Sat May 16 12:38:37 2015 From: shervinafshar at gmail.com (Shervin Afshar) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 10:38:37 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> Message-ID: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not > cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That > is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the > highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the > organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > > Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one > of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil > go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 > votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be > draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is > specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the > "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, > French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in > order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes > when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC > review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Mjbmr > To: Shervin Afshar > > Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > ------------------------------ > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn > repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution > rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: *http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure* > > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* > > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be > removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > *CLDR-Users at unicode.org* > *http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users* > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sat May 16 12:47:22 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 22:17:22 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are > listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization > ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum > (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on > that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting > for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the > vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. > > > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: >> Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall >> into one of the following buckets: >> >> Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote >> will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". >> >> Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive >> 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item >> to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft >> status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only >> exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples >> would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). >> For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a >> change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). >> >> TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve >> disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility >> items that require a TC review. >> >> Regards, >> >> John C. Emmons >> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >> IBM Software Group >> Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com >> >> >> >> >> From: Mjbmr >> To: Shervin Afshar >> >> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org >> Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get >> into svn repos or not? >> >> On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >> They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the >> resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". >> >> [1]: _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure_ >> >> ? Shervin >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ >> > wrote: >> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will >> they be removed? >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list_ >> __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ >> __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shervinafshar at gmail.com Sat May 16 12:58:21 2015 From: shervinafshar at gmail.com (Shervin Afshar) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 10:58:21 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't > waster my time on contacting people? > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations > from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't > waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations > from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are > listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization > ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not >> cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That >> is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the >> highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the >> organization as a whole is 4. > > > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > >> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >> >> What's the "TC"? >> >> Who are the members of unicode organization? >> >> >> On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: >> >> Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into >> one of the following buckets: >> >> Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil >> go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". >> >> Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 >> votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be >> draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is >> specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the >> "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, >> French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in >> order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). >> >> TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve >> disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that >> require a TC review. >> >> Regards, >> >> John C. Emmons >> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >> IBM Software Group >> Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com >> >> >> >> >> From: Mjbmr >> To: Shervin Afshar >> >> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org >> Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn >> repos or not? >> >> On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >> They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution >> rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". >> >> [1]: *http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure* >> >> >> ? Shervin >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* >> > wrote: >> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be >> removed? >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> *CLDR-Users at unicode.org* >> *http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sat May 16 13:28:17 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 22:58:17 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I > wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I > pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this > thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and > contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document > carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope > you do). > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a > wiki would be better. > > > Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're > involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring > their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On > occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: > > https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I > wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a > wiki would be better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >> TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations >> are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html >> >> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >> >> >> All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same >> organization ("guest") and therefore: >> >> For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the >> maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users >> who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has >> 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is >> regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the >> organization as a whole is 4. >> >> >> http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process >> >> >> ? Shervin >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr > > wrote: >> >> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >> >> What's the "TC"? >> >> Who are the members of unicode organization? >> >> >> On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: >>> Depending on the level of account you have, most things will >>> fall into one of the following buckets: >>> >>> Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 >>> vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". >>> >>> Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations >>> receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes >>> for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning >>> when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data >>> ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" >>> locales, ( examples would include things like German, >>> French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes >>> are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from >>> 2 different organizations ). >>> >>> TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to >>> resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high >>> visibility items that require a TC review. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> John C. Emmons >>> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >>> IBM Software Group >>> Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Mjbmr >>> To: Shervin Afshar >>> >>> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org >>> Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM >>> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >>> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they >>> get into svn repos or not? >>> >>> On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>> They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting >>> the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as >>> "provisional". >>> >>> [1]: >>> _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure_ >>> >>> ? Shervin >>> >>> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ >>> > wrote: >>> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, >>> will they be removed? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CLDR-Users mailing list_ >>> __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ >>> __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CLDR-Users mailing list >>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users >>> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From srl at icu-project.org Sat May 16 13:34:56 2015 From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 11:34:56 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <945D3C5A-009F-4C1E-A2C5-538071255E5C@icu-project.org> I filed a ticket to clarify http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/8525 But what I'm not clear on, is what's actually blocking you. Is there a problem with the specific status? Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. > >> On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. >> >> It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. >> >>> So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? >> >> Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). >> >>> I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. >> >> Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: >> >> https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR >> >> >> ? Shervin >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: >>> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. >>> >>> So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? >>> >>> I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. >>> >>> >>>> On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>>> TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html >>>> >>>>> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >>>> >>>> All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: >>>> >>>>> For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. >>>> >>>> http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process >>>> >>>> >>>> ? Shervin >>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: >>>>> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >>>>> >>>>> What's the "TC"? >>>>> >>>>> Who are the members of unicode organization? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: >>>>>> Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: >>>>>> >>>>>> Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". >>>>>> >>>>>> Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). >>>>>> >>>>>> TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> John C. Emmons >>>>>> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >>>>>> IBM Software Group >>>>>> Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Mjbmr >>>>>> To: Shervin Afshar >>>>>> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org >>>>>> Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >>>>>> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>>>>> They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure >>>>>> >>>>>> ? Shervin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: >>>>>> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list >>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list >>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From srl at icu-project.org Sat May 16 13:39:14 2015 From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 11:39:14 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. > >> On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. >> >> It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. >> >>> So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? >> >> Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). >> >>> I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. >> >> Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: >> >> https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR >> >> >> ? Shervin >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: >>> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. >>> >>> So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? >>> >>> I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. >>> >>> >>>> On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>>> TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html >>>> >>>>> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >>>> >>>> All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: >>>> >>>>> For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. >>>> >>>> http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process >>>> >>>> >>>> ? Shervin >>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: >>>>> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >>>>> >>>>> What's the "TC"? >>>>> >>>>> Who are the members of unicode organization? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: >>>>>> Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: >>>>>> >>>>>> Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". >>>>>> >>>>>> Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). >>>>>> >>>>>> TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> John C. Emmons >>>>>> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >>>>>> IBM Software Group >>>>>> Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Mjbmr >>>>>> To: Shervin Afshar >>>>>> Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org >>>>>> Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >>>>>> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >>>>>> They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure >>>>>> >>>>>> ? Shervin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: >>>>>> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list >>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CLDR-Users mailing list >>>>>> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >>>>>> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emmo at us.ibm.com Sat May 16 16:38:26 2015 From: emmo at us.ibm.com (John Emmons) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 16:38:26 -0500 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> Message-ID: I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: "Steven R. Loomis" To: Mjbmr Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" , John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emmo at us.ibm.com Sat May 16 17:06:57 2015 From: emmo at us.ibm.com (John Emmons) Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 17:06:57 -0500 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> Message-ID: Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming members of the Unicode consortium. The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Shawn Steele To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" , Mjbmr Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM Subject: RE: 4 Votes How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. -Shawn From: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of John Emmons Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM To: Steven R. Loomis Cc: Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr Subject: Re: 4 Votes I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: "Steven R. Loomis" To: Mjbmr Cc: Shervin Afshar , " cldr-users at unicode.org" , John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 06:36:42 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:06:42 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> Message-ID: <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one even both have two votes. Please fix that. The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down with some votes. I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in Persian. I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these in Persian, but they are gone. Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said what's required. On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: > Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming > members of the Unicode consortium. > > The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer > "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal > with these on a case by case basis. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Shawn Steele > To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" > > Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" > , Mjbmr > Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM > Subject: RE: 4 Votes > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? > > It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the > organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it > might be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that > are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. > > -Shawn > > *From:* CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] *On Behalf > Of *John Emmons* > Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM* > To:* Steven R. Loomis* > Cc:* Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr* > Subject:* Re: 4 Votes > > I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote > ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will > make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a > rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given > data item. > > I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to > the CLDR will be wasted. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: _emmo at us.ibm.com_ > > > > > From: "Steven R. Loomis" <_srl at icu-project.org_ > > > To: Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > > Cc: Shervin Afshar <_shervinafshar at gmail.com_ > >, "_cldr-users at unicode.org_ > " <_cldr-users at unicode.org_ > >, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS > Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" <_cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org_ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are > removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely > available for implementations to use > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > > escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll > give up if there is something blocking me. > > On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I > wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I > pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this > thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and > contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document > carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope > you do). > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations > from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be > better. > > Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're > involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring > their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On > occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: > _ > __https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR_ > > > ?Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > > wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I > wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations > from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be > better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are > listed at: _http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html_ > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization > ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum > (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that > item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an > value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count > attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. > > _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process_ > > > ?Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > > wrote: > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into > one of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will > stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 > votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be > draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is > specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are > the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like > German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are > required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different > organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve > disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items > that require a TC review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: _emmo at us.ibm.com_ > > > > > From: Mjbmr __ > To: Shervin Afshar __ > > Cc: _cldr-users at unicode.org_ > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" __ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into > svn repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the > resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure_ > > ?Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be > removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ > __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ > __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ > __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users________________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ > __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From verdy_p at wanadoo.fr Sun May 17 08:34:32 2015 From: verdy_p at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Verdy) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 15:34:32 +0200 Subject: HTTPS Access In-Reply-To: <5551860E.4000702@gmail.com> References: <555177D9.5090606@gmail.com> <5551860E.4000702@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a good argument, addiitionally HTTPS helps securing transactions from trusted users and securing their private data against abuses. HTTPS is no longer an option on the web, I support (like many) HTTPS everywhere (and it is no longer costly to support with existing architectures, hardwares, and software libraries on servers and clients that have been largely optimized for speed and efficient use of resources; even processors today have support for accelerating the needed algorithms; the performance impact is now invisible compared to network transmission delays, even if for the initial setup of connections this may require initial roundtrips on the first visit for a given domain, or occasionally to renew the expired security tokens) 2015-05-12 6:48 GMT+02:00 Mjbmr : > Our people from Iran are worried about their safety. > > > On 5/12/2015 9:16 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > > Not at present. > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 11, 2015, a las 8:47 PM, Mjbmr escribi?: > > Will be a HTTPS access for ST and main domain? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eik at iki.fi Sun May 17 08:40:36 2015 From: eik at iki.fi (Erkki I Kolehmainen) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:40:36 +0300 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> Dear Mjbmr, Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? in fact - authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a discussion on the cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it is justifiably somewhat more difficult to overturn an _approved_ value than to introduce a new one. Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the interested parties to express and justify their positions. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 Vastaanottaja: cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one even both have two votes. Please fix that. The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down with some votes. I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in Persian. I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these in Persian, but they are gone. Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said what's required. On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming members of the Unicode consortium. The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Shawn Steele To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" , Mjbmr Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM Subject: RE: 4 Votes _____ How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. -Shawn From: CLDR-Users [ mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of John Emmons Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM To: Steven R. Loomis Cc: Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr Subject: Re: 4 Votes I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: "Steven R. Loomis" < srl at icu-project.org> To: Mjbmr < mjbmri at gmail.com> Cc: Shervin Afshar < shervinafshar at gmail.com>, " cldr-users at unicode.org" < cldr-users at unicode.org>, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" < cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org> _____ In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" _____ I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 13:45:14 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 23:15:14 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> Message-ID: <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So please don't call it open source when I as a "guest" can't override an approved wrong item. On 5/17/2015 6:10 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > > Dear Mjbmr, > > Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? in fact - > authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a discussion on the > cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it is justifiably somewhat > more difficult to overturn an _/approved/_ value than to introduce a > new one. > > Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the interested > parties to express and justify their positions. > > Sincerely, > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland > > Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 > > *L?hett?j?:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] > *Puolesta *Mjbmr > *L?hetetty:* 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 > *Vastaanottaja:* cldr-users at unicode.org > *Aihe:* Re: 4 Votes > > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. > > For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in > Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, > but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning > item, ST has chose older translation over the new one even both have > two votes. Please fix that. > > The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language > you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? > ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down > with some votes. > > I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, > it's not going to loose approved translation. > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is > "Efrica" in Persian. > > I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these > in Persian, but they are gone. > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already > said what's required. > > On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: > > Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming > members of the Unicode consortium. > > The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer > "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We > deal with these on a case by case basis. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Shawn Steele > > To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" > > Cc: Shervin Afshar > , "cldr-users at unicode.org" > > , Mjbmr > > Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM > Subject: RE: 4 Votes > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? > > It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that > the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest > in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the > parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. > > -Shawn > > *From:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] *On > Behalf Of *John Emmons* > Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM* > To:* Steven R. Loomis* > Cc:* Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org > ; Mjbmr* > Subject:* Re: 4 Votes > > I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single > vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, > which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply > intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the > quality of any given data item. > > I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing > to the CLDR will be wasted. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: "Steven R. Loomis" > > To: Mjbmr > > Cc: Shervin Afshar >, "cldr-users at unicode.org > " >, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS > Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes > are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our > freely available for implementations to use > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr > escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. > I'll give up if there is something blocking me. > > On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I > wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. > I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of > this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting > and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that > document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR > (which I hope you do). > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a > wiki would be better. > > Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're > involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring > their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. > On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: > _ > _https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I > wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a > wiki would be better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations > are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same > organization ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum > (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on > that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting > for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the > vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. > > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall > into one of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote > will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive > 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item > to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status > is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to > this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include > things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these > locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of > eyes from 2 different organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve > disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items > that require a TC review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Mjbmr > To: Shervin Afshar > > Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get > into svn repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the > resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they > be removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CLDR-Users mailing list > > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shervinafshar at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:11:40 2015 From: shervinafshar at gmail.com (Shervin Afshar) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:11:40 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. Either way, mobilizing or invitation, the procedures and regulations of the project should be followed. > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in > Persian. This is not a defect; using "??????" rather than "??????" (as well as "??????") is intentional. Refer to "??? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???? ?????". > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said > what's required. Of course, it is your decision, but Erkki mentioned the gist of the procedure clearly. ? Shervin On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 4:36 AM, Mjbmr wrote: > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. > > For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in > Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, but I > also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning item, ST > has chose older translation over the new one even both have two votes. > Please fix that. > > The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language you > have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? ???????" which > it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down with some votes. > > I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, it's > not going to loose approved translation. > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in > Persian. > > I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these in > Persian, but they are gone. > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said > what's required. > > On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: > > Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming members > of the Unicode consortium. > > The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer > "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal with > these on a case by case basis. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Shawn Steele > > To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" > > Cc: Shervin Afshar > , "cldr-users at unicode.org" > , > Mjbmr > Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM > Subject: RE: 4 Votes > ------------------------------ > > > > How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? > > It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the > organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it might > be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that are > interested in those languages to be ?regular?. > > -Shawn > > *From:* CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org > ] *On Behalf Of *John Emmons > * Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM > * To:* Steven R. Loomis > * Cc:* Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr > * Subject:* Re: 4 Votes > > I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 > point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it > part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure > of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. > > I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the > CLDR will be wasted. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: *emmo at us.ibm.com* > > > > > From: "Steven R. Loomis" <*srl at icu-project.org* > > > To: Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* > > Cc: Shervin Afshar <*shervinafshar at gmail.com* > >, "*cldr-users at unicode.org* > " <*cldr-users at unicode.org* > >, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS > Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" <*cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org* > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are > removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely > available for implementations to use > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* > > escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give > up if there is something blocking me. > > On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't > waster my time on contacting people? > > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I > pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. > All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is > documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you > decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations > from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. > > Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're > involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their > attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, > WMF has organizational votes on some locales: > > *https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR* > > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* > > wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't > waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations > from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are > listed at: *http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html* > > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization > ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not > cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That > is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the > highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the > organization as a whole is 4. > > *http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process* > > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* > > wrote: > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one > of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil > go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. > Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be > draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is > specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the > "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, > French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in > order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes > when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC > review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: *emmo at us.ibm.com* > > > > > From: Mjbmr ** > To: Shervin Afshar ** > > Cc: *cldr-users at unicode.org* > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" ** > > ------------------------------ > > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn > repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution > rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: *http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure* > > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <*mjbmri at gmail.com* > > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be > removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > *CLDR-Users at unicode.org* > *http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users* > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > *CLDR-Users at unicode.org* > *http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users* > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > *CLDR-Users at unicode.org* > *http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users* > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > *CLDR-Users at unicode.org* > *http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users* > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing listCLDR-Users at unicode.orghttp://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:15:27 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 23:45:27 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5558E8CF.5010403@gmail.com> "intentional"? people please pay attention. Are you saying you don't want use common names? On 5/17/2015 11:41 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. > > > Either way, mobilizing or invitation, the procedures and regulations > of the project should be followed. > > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is > "Efrica" in Persian. > > > This is not a defect; using "??????" rather than "??????" (as well as > "??????") is intentional. Refer to "??? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???? > ?????". > > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I > already said what's required. > > > Of course, it is your decision, but Erkki mentioned the gist of the > procedure clearly. > > > ? Shervin > > On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 4:36 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. > > For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code > in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix > that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be > the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one > even both have two votes. Please fix that. > > The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri > language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be > "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved > one down with some votes. > > I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in > Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is > "Efrica" in Persian. > > I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for > these in Persian, but they are gone. > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I > already said what's required. > > On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: >> Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming >> members of the Unicode consortium. >> >> The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer >> "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We >> deal with these on a case by case basis. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> John C. Emmons >> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >> IBM Software Group >> Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com >> >> >> >> >> From: Shawn Steele >> >> To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" >> >> Cc: Shervin Afshar >> , "cldr-users at unicode.org" >> >> , Mjbmr >> >> Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM >> Subject: RE: 4 Votes >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? >> >> It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that >> the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest >> in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the >> parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. >> >> -Shawn >> >> *From:* CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] *On >> Behalf Of *John Emmons* >> Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM* >> To:* Steven R. Loomis* >> Cc:* Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org >> ; Mjbmr* >> Subject:* Re: 4 Votes >> >> I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single >> vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, >> which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply >> intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the >> quality of any given data item. >> >> I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing >> to the CLDR will be wasted. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> John C. Emmons >> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >> IBM Software Group >> Internet: _emmo at us.ibm.com_ >> >> >> >> >> From: "Steven R. Loomis" <_srl at icu-project.org_ >> > >> To: Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ > >> Cc: Shervin Afshar <_shervinafshar at gmail.com_ >> >, "_cldr-users at unicode.org_ >> " <_cldr-users at unicode.org_ >> >, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS >> Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM >> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" <_cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org_ >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes >> are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our >> freely available for implementations to use >> >> Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. >> >> El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ >> > escribi?: >> >> I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. >> I'll give up if there is something blocking me. >> >> On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. >> >> It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. >> >> So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I >> wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? >> >> Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to >> vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning >> of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding >> voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to >> study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing >> to the CLDR (which I hope you do). >> >> I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode >> organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like >> a wiki would be better. >> >> Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since >> you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you >> can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these >> languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some >> locales: >> _ >> __https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR_ >> >> >> ?Shervin >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ >> > wrote: >> Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. >> >> So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I >> wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? >> >> I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode >> organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like >> a wiki would be better. >> >> >> On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >> TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations >> are listed at: _http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html_ >> >> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >> >> All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same >> organization ("guest") and therefore: >> >> For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the >> maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who >> voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 >> Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular >> vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a >> whole is 4. >> >> _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process_ >> >> >> ?Shervin >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ >> > wrote: >> So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? >> >> What's the "TC"? >> >> Who are the members of unicode organization? >> >> >> On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: >> Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall >> into one of the following buckets: >> >> Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote >> will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". >> >> Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive >> 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item >> to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft >> status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only >> exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples >> would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). >> For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change >> ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). >> >> TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve >> disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility >> items that require a TC review. >> >> Regards, >> >> John C. Emmons >> Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman >> IBM Software Group >> Internet: _emmo at us.ibm.com_ >> >> >> >> >> From: Mjbmr __ >> To: Shervin Afshar __ >> >> Cc: _cldr-users at unicode.org_ >> Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: 4 Votes >> Sent by: "CLDR-Users" __ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get >> into svn repos or not? >> >> On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: >> They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the >> resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". >> >> [1]: _http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure_ >> >> ?Shervin >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr <_mjbmri at gmail.com_ >> > wrote: >> If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will >> they be removed? >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list_ >> __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ >> __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list_ >> __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ >> __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list_ >> __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ >> __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users________________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list_ >> __CLDR-Users at unicode.org_ _ >> __http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CLDR-Users mailing list >> CLDR-Users at unicode.org >> http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asmodai at in-nomine.org Sun May 17 14:18:51 2015 From: asmodai at in-nomine.org (Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:18:51 +0200 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> References: <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150517191851.GC60501@nexus.in-nomine.org> -On [20150517 20:47], Mjbmr (mjbmri at gmail.com) wrote: >Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So please don't >call it open source when I as a "guest" can't override an approved wrong item. It is open source. Everything is made publicly available and people can contribute without any restrictions in the licensing. The codifying and involvement of process(es) does not change that fact. Back on topic: the reason why you are asked to submit a ticket is to make sure proper process is taken and a sufficient audit trail is kept. This data typically winds up in many big and small software products, so everything needs to be carefully vetted. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? http://www.in-nomine.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B Not thinking of good, not thinking of evil - tell me, what was your original face before your mother and father were born? From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:20:06 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 23:50:06 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <20150517191851.GC60501@nexus.in-nomine.org> References: <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <20150517191851.GC60501@nexus.in-nomine.org> Message-ID: <5558E9E6.3090100@gmail.com> No one asked. On 5/17/2015 11:48 PM, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote: > Back on topic: the reason why you are asked to submit a ticket is to make > sure proper process is taken and a sufficient audit trail is kept. This data > typically winds up in many big and small software products, so everything From eik at iki.fi Sun May 17 14:27:07 2015 From: eik at iki.fi (Erkki I Kolehmainen) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 22:27:07 +0300 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be absolutely right (which I am in no expert position to challenge), but in that case you should be able to convince other language experts and users to support your position and stop insisting that you should be able to override earlier approved values just because you say so. The purpose of the vetting process is to produce generally acceptable values, and the tickets complement it effectively. Erkki I. Kolehmainen L?hett?j?: Mjbmr [mailto:mjbmri at gmail.com] L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 21:45 Vastaanottaja: Erkki I Kolehmainen; cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So please don't call it open source when I as a "guest" can't override an approved wrong item. On 5/17/2015 6:10 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Dear Mjbmr, Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? in fact - authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a discussion on the cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it is justifiably somewhat more difficult to overturn an _approved_ value than to introduce a new one. Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the interested parties to express and justify their positions. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 Vastaanottaja: cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one even both have two votes. Please fix that. The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down with some votes. I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in Persian. I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these in Persian, but they are gone. Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said what's required. On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming members of the Unicode consortium. The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Shawn Steele To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" , Mjbmr Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM Subject: RE: 4 Votes _____ How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. -Shawn From: CLDR-Users [ mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of John Emmons Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM To: Steven R. Loomis Cc: Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr Subject: Re: 4 Votes I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: "Steven R. Loomis" < srl at icu-project.org> To: Mjbmr < mjbmri at gmail.com> Cc: Shervin Afshar < shervinafshar at gmail.com>, " cldr-users at unicode.org" < cldr-users at unicode.org>, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" < cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org> _____ In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" _____ I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:30:19 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:00:19 +0430 Subject: Update on Western Baluchi (bgn) Message-ID: <5558EC4B.4000404@gmail.com> Hello, Please someone own following ticket: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/8526 Even I said the instruction for Western Baluchi on following ticket: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/8275 Such as please remove bgn_AE and bgn_OM, I put them by mistake, they exist in the trunk. And I don't see the Cyrillic variant ever deployed. From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:33:30 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:03:30 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> Message-ID: <5558ED0A.7060007@gmail.com> Why a Persian thinks that his Luri translation is good and no one can take it down? Why a Mazandarani can't take his own translation down? On 5/17/2015 11:57 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > > Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be absolutely right > (which I am in no expert position to challenge), but in that case you > should be able to convince other language experts and users to support > your position and stop insisting that you should be able to override > earlier approved values just because you say so. The purpose of the > vetting process is to produce generally acceptable values, and the > tickets complement it effectively. > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > *L?hett?j?:*Mjbmr [mailto:mjbmri at gmail.com] > *L?hetetty:* 17. toukokuuta 2015 21:45 > *Vastaanottaja:* Erkki I Kolehmainen; cldr-users at unicode.org > *Aihe:* Re: 4 Votes > > Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So > please don't call it open source when I as a "guest" can't override an > approved wrong item. > > On 5/17/2015 6:10 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > > Dear Mjbmr, > > Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? in > fact - authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a discussion > on the cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it is justifiably > somewhat more difficult to overturn an _/approved/_ value than to > introduce a new one. > > Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the > interested parties to express and justify their positions. > > Sincerely, > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland > > Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 > > *L?hett?j?:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] > *Puolesta *Mjbmr > *L?hetetty:* 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 > *Vastaanottaja:* cldr-users at unicode.org > > *Aihe:* Re: 4 Votes > > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. > > For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code > in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix > that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be > the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one > even both have two votes. Please fix that. > > The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri > language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be > "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved > one down with some votes. > > I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in > Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is > "Efrica" in Persian. > > I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for > these in Persian, but they are gone. > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I > already said what's required. > > On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: > > Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by > becoming members of the Unicode consortium. > > The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to > confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular > language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Shawn Steele > > To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" > > Cc: Shervin Afshar > , "cldr-users at unicode.org" > > , Mjbmr > > Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM > Subject: RE: 4 Votes > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? > > It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) > that the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business > interest in, it might be good to have a way to get at least > some of the parties that are interested in those languages to > be ?regular?. > > -Shawn > > *From:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] *On > Behalf Of *John Emmons* > Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM* > To:* Steven R. Loomis* > Cc:* Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org > ; Mjbmr* > Subject:* Re: 4 Votes > > I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a > single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" > status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status > is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we > put in the quality of any given data item. > > I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in > contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: "Steven R. Loomis" > > To: Mjbmr > > Cc: Shervin Afshar >, "cldr-users at unicode.org > " >, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS > Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > In other words, provisional status does not mean that your > votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release > on our freely available for implementations to use > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr > escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, that's > all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. > > On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so > I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to > vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the > beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations > regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I > invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to > keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, > like a wiki would be better. > > Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since > you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, > you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in > these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on > some locales: > _ > _https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so > I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, > like a wiki would be better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member > organizations are listed at: > http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same > organization ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the > maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users > who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has > 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is > regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the > organization as a whole is 4. > > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > Depending on the level of account you have, most things will > fall into one of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote > will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations > receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes > for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning > when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). > The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" > locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, > Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required > in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different > organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to > resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high > visibility items that require a TC review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Mjbmr > To: Shervin Afshar > > Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they > get into svn repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the > resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". > > [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will > they be removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CLDR-Users mailing list > > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:50:11 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:20:11 +0430 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5558F0F3.9040606@gmail.com> Shervin, please read below. I think you're bringing some policies from Persian Wikipedia here. On 5/12/2015 2:57 AM, F?ram na G?idhlig wrote: > If you don't have enough contributors to get anything done, you could > try finding an organization to sponsor you. I know that one can ask > Wikimedia - but they might want to get to know you a little first. > > Good luck! On 5/17/2015 11:41 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > Either way, mobilizing or invitation, the procedures and regulations > of the project should be followed. From yury.tarasievich at gmail.com Sun May 17 15:51:44 2015 From: yury.tarasievich at gmail.com (Yury Tarasievich) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 23:51:44 +0300 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> Message-ID: <5558FF60.10405@gmail.com> On 05/17/2015 10:27 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be > absolutely right (which I am in no expert > position to challenge), but in that case you > should be able to convince other language > experts and users to support your position and > stop insisting that you should be able to > override earlier approved values just because > you say so. The purpose of the vetting process > is to produce generally acceptable values, and > the tickets complement it effectively. The form might be better, but I can identify with the guy, nevertheless. This is the kind of a problem sort of built-in in the cldr process. Several years ago I just stopped investing the time in the native locale in cldr, because of the same issues -- fields being pre-filled on some nebulous/undisclosed basis, and then it's sort of irrevokable decision. Vetting, yeah, yeah. -Yury From mark at macchiato.com Sun May 17 18:25:52 2015 From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=) Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:25:52 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5558FF60.10405@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> <5558FF60.10405@gmail.com> Message-ID: Let me set out some of our constraints first?so that people can understand what we can and can't do?but we'd be glad to take suggestions that would improve the voting process described on http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure . Our goal is to be able to let people submit data as easily as possible (given that we have limited engineering resources). There are two big issues: - How reliable is the data? - We have a mechanism in place to signal to consumers of the data an indicator of that status, called the 'draft' status. - We certainly don't want data that is malicious (like http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/11/google-shuts-down-map-maker-following-hacks/) or simply misinformed data (which is why we test the consistency of the data wherever we can). - What is the dispute mechanism? - If two or more people disagree, how do we resolve the dispute? (ideally, to get the most reliable data). - We also need to have stability?we don't want "battling data", where a field is X for one release, Y for the next, and then back to X. We have refined the mechanisms that we use over time. While anyone can enter data, it is marked provisional or unconfirmed unless we have some reason to believe that it is more authoritative. We're not in a position to judge the qualifications of submitters, so for that, we encourage people to get some body (governmental, academic) that can stand behind their work. Now, even if authority doesn't exist, the submitted data is still there, and can be used. Resolving the disputes is even trickier, and we continue to refine the mechanisms. For example, if there is a tied dispute within those representing a given organization, in the past we nullified the organization's vote. We're changing that to use the most recent vote in the current release. If you have concrete suggestions for improving how we do things, we'd love hearing about them. If you file a ticket, then we can be sure that those are tracked (and don't fall through the cracks). Mark *? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?* On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Yury Tarasievich < yury.tarasievich at gmail.com> wrote: > On 05/17/2015 10:27 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > >> Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be >> absolutely right (which I am in no expert >> position to challenge), but in that case you >> should be able to convince other language >> experts and users to support your position and >> stop insisting that you should be able to >> override earlier approved values just because >> you say so. The purpose of the vetting process >> is to produce generally acceptable values, and >> the tickets complement it effectively. >> > > The form might be better, but I can identify with the guy, nevertheless. > This is the kind of a problem sort of built-in in the cldr process. Several > years ago I just stopped investing the time in the native locale in cldr, > because of the same issues -- fields being pre-filled on some > nebulous/undisclosed basis, and then it's sort of irrevokable decision. > Vetting, yeah, yeah. > > -Yury > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yury.tarasievich at gmail.com Sun May 17 23:29:20 2015 From: yury.tarasievich at gmail.com (Yury Tarasievich) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:29:20 +0300 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> <5558FF60.10405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55596AA0.6050103@gmail.com> Apropos of noone's affiliations, this is not how the scheme is actually working, at least not when the -- ordinary speaking -- 'politics' gets in. To provide a current example, certain well-known search service even now uses some off-beat definitions for the language names in its interface in language X. Off-beat to the point of being incomprehensible to the language X users, I 'kid you not'. I'm pretty certain no language X standardising body mandated this input. So who put it there and on what grounds? CLDR and some other bodies in similar position tend to go for the broder coverage (crowd-sourcing the product, as it seems). This, however, means that their representations of some (more marginal? unsufficiently stabilised?) languages' cultures get 'shoddy' or plainly diverge from the actual conditions. What's the expected result then, I wonder? Is it an internet user hurrying to file an issue? An internet user going 'pfff', more like. -Yury On 05/18/2015 02:25 AM, Mark Davis ?? wrote: > Let me set out some of our constraints first?so > that people can understand what we can and can't > do?but we'd be glad to take suggestions that ... From eik at iki.fi Mon May 18 00:35:35 2015 From: eik at iki.fi (Erkki I Kolehmainen) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:35:35 +0300 Subject: VS: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5558ED0A.7060007@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> <5558ED0A.7060007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d0912c$7703a320$650ae960$@fi> Effective mechanisms exist to take down wrong translations. A person can always change his or her own mind, but if a submitted value has been approved, the originator has no right to nullify the votes of others who have supported it. Erkki I. Kolehmainen L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 22:34 Vastaanottaja: cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Why a Persian thinks that his Luri translation is good and no one can take it down? Why a Mazandarani can't take his own translation down? On 5/17/2015 11:57 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be absolutely right (which I am in no expert position to challenge), but in that case you should be able to convince other language experts and users to support your position and stop insisting that you should be able to override earlier approved values just because you say so. The purpose of the vetting process is to produce generally acceptable values, and the tickets complement it effectively. Erkki I. Kolehmainen L?hett?j?: Mjbmr [mailto:mjbmri at gmail.com] L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 21:45 Vastaanottaja: Erkki I Kolehmainen; cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So please don't call it open source when I as a "guest" can't override an approved wrong item. On 5/17/2015 6:10 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Dear Mjbmr, Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? in fact - authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a discussion on the cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it is justifiably somewhat more difficult to overturn an _approved_ value than to introduce a new one. Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the interested parties to express and justify their positions. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 Vastaanottaja: cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one even both have two votes. Please fix that. The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down with some votes. I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in Persian. I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these in Persian, but they are gone. Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said what's required. On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming members of the Unicode consortium. The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Shawn Steele To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" , Mjbmr Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM Subject: RE: 4 Votes _____ How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. -Shawn From: CLDR-Users [ mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of John Emmons Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM To: Steven R. Loomis Cc: Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr Subject: Re: 4 Votes I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: "Steven R. Loomis" < srl at icu-project.org> To: Mjbmr < mjbmri at gmail.com> Cc: Shervin Afshar < shervinafshar at gmail.com>, " cldr-users at unicode.org" < cldr-users at unicode.org>, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" < cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org> _____ In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" _____ I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjbmri at gmail.com Mon May 18 07:26:32 2015 From: mjbmri at gmail.com (Mjbmr) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 16:56:32 +0430 Subject: VS: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <000001d0912c$7703a320$650ae960$@fi> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> <5558ED0A.7060007@gmail.com> <000001d0912c$7703a320$650ae960$@fi> Message-ID: <5559DA78.4080704@gmail.com> Erkki, what's your thoughts about following comment by Shervin. On 5/17/2015 11:41 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > This is not a defect; using "??????" rather than "??????" (as well as > "??????") is intentional. Refer to "??? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???? > ?????". On 5/18/2015 10:05 AM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > > Effective mechanisms exist to take down wrong translations. > > A person can always change his or her own mind, but if a submitted > value has been approved, the originator has no right to nullify the > votes of others who have supported it. > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > *L?hett?**j?:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] > *Puolesta *Mjbmr > *L?hetetty:* 17. toukokuuta 2015 22:34 > *Vastaanottaja:* cldr-users at unicode.org > *Aihe:* Re: 4 Votes > > Why a Persian thinks that his Luri translation is good and no one can > take it down? > > Why a Mazandarani can't take his own translation down? > > On 5/17/2015 11:57 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > > Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be absolutely right > (which I am in no expert position to challenge), but in that case > you should be able to convince other language experts and users to > support your position and stop insisting that you should be able > to override earlier approved values just because you say so. The > purpose of the vetting process is to produce generally acceptable > values, and the tickets complement it effectively. > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > *L?hett?j?:*Mjbmr [mailto:mjbmri at gmail.com] > *L?hetetty:* 17. toukokuuta 2015 21:45 > *Vastaanottaja:* Erkki I Kolehmainen; cldr-users at unicode.org > > *Aihe:* Re: 4 Votes > > Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So > please don't call it open source when I as a "guest" can't > override an approved wrong item. > > On 5/17/2015 6:10 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > > Dear Mjbmr, > > Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? > in fact - authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a > discussion on the cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it > is justifiably somewhat more difficult to overturn an > _/approved/_ value than to introduce a new one. > > Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the > interested parties to express and justify their positions. > > Sincerely, > > Erkki I. Kolehmainen > > Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland > > Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 > > *L?hett?j?:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] > *Puolesta *Mjbmr > *L?hetetty:* 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 > *Vastaanottaja:* cldr-users at unicode.org > > *Aihe:* Re: 4 Votes > > Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to > contribute. > > For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory > code in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person > to fix that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not > going to be the winning item, ST has chose older translation > over the new one even both have two votes. Please fix that. > > The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri > language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should > be "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the > approved one down with some votes. > > I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in > Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. > > Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is > "Efrica" in Persian. > > I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for > these in Persian, but they are gone. > > Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I > already said what's required. > > On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: > > Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by > becoming members of the Unicode consortium. > > The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to > confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular > language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Shawn Steele > > To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" > > Cc: Shervin Afshar > , "cldr-users at unicode.org" > > , Mjbmr > > Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM > Subject: RE: 4 Votes > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? > > It seems like if certain folks are interested in > language(s) that the organizations working in CLDR don?t > have a business interest in, it might be good to have a > way to get at least some of the parties that are > interested in those languages to be ?regular?. > > -Shawn > > *From:*CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] > *On Behalf Of *John Emmons* > Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM* > To:* Steven R. Loomis* > Cc:* Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org > ; Mjbmr* > Subject:* Re: 4 Votes > > I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a > single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item > draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the > CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough > measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any > given data item. > > I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in > contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: "Steven R. Loomis" > > To: Mjbmr > > Cc: Shervin Afshar >, "cldr-users at unicode.org > " >, John > Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS > Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > In other words, provisional status does not mean that your > votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the > release on our freely available for implementations to use > > Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. > > El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr > escribi?: > > I only try to help these people and these languages, > that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. > > On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first > time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people > to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the > beginning of this thread. All the procedures and > regulations regarding voting and contribution is > documented there. I invite you to study that document > carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR > (which I hope you do). > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another > choice, like a wiki would be better. > > Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but > since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects > as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of > your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has > organizational votes on some locales: > _ > _https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. > > So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first > time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? > > I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode > organizations from all languages. Better be another > choice, like a wiki would be better. > > > On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member > organizations are listed at: > http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html > > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same > organization ("guest") and therefore: > > For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the > maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its > users who voted on that item. That is, even if an > organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the > highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count > attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. > > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process > > > ? Shervin > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? > > What's the "TC"? > > Who are the members of unicode organization? > > > On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: > Depending on the level of account you have, most things > will fall into one of the following buckets: > > Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 > vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". > > Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations > receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 > votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the > meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in > the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high > visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like > German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, > 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of > eyes from 2 different organizations ). > > TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to > resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high > visibility items that require a TC review. > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Mjbmr > To: Shervin Afshar > > Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org > Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will > they get into svn repos or not? > > On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: > They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting > the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as > "provisional". > > [1]: > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure > > ? Shervin > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr > wrote: > If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, > will they be removed? > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list_ > _CLDR-Users at unicode.org _ > _http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CLDR-Users mailing list > > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emmo at us.ibm.com Mon May 18 08:00:02 2015 From: emmo at us.ibm.com (John Emmons) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:00:02 -0500 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d Message-ID: Thanks Mark for (hopefully) putting this topic to rest. I take great pride in working with the people who contribute tirelessly to this project, and there are many of them. The processes we've put in place over the last decade, while not perfect, are there to give us the highest quality data we can. Open source does not mean uncontrolled source. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mark Davis ?? To: Yury Tarasievich Cc: "cldr-users at unicode.org" Date: 05/17/2015 06:28 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" Let me set out some of our constraints first?so that people can understand what we can and can't do?but we'd be glad to take suggestions that would improve the voting process described on http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure . Our goal is to be able to let people submit data as easily as possible (given that we have limited engineering resources). There are two big issues: How reliable is the data? We have a mechanism in place to signal to consumers of the data an indicator of that status, called the 'draft' status. We certainly don't want data that is malicious (like http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/11/google-shuts-down-map-maker-following-hacks/ ) or simply misinformed data (which is why we test the consistency of the data wherever we can). What is the dispute mechanism? If two or more people disagree, how do we resolve the dispute? (ideally, to get the most reliable data). We also need to have stability?we don't want "battling data", where a field is X for one release, Y for the next, and then back to X. We have refined the mechanisms that we use over time. While anyone can enter data, it is marked provisional or unconfirmed unless we have some reason to believe that it is more authoritative. We're not in a position to judge the qualifications of submitters, so for that, we encourage people to get some body (governmental, academic) that can stand behind their work. Now, even if authority doesn't exist, the submitted data is still there, and can be used. Resolving the disputes is even trickier, and we continue to refine the mechanisms. For example, if there is a tied dispute within those representing a given organization, in the past we nullified the organization's vote. We're changing that to use the most recent vote in the current release. If you have concrete suggestions for improving how we do things, we'd love hearing about them. If you file a ticket, then we can be sure that those are tracked (and don't fall through the cracks). Mark ? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ? On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Yury Tarasievich < yury.tarasievich at gmail.com> wrote: On 05/17/2015 10:27 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be absolutely right (which I am in no expert position to challenge), but in that case you should be able to convince other language experts and users to support your position and stop insisting that you should be able to override earlier approved values just because you say so. The purpose of the vetting process is to produce generally acceptable values, and the tickets complement it effectively. The form might be better, but I can identify with the guy, nevertheless. This is the kind of a problem sort of built-in in the cldr process. Several years ago I just stopped investing the time in the native locale in cldr, because of the same issues -- fields being pre-filled on some nebulous/undisclosed basis, and then it's sort of irrevokable decision. Vetting, yeah, yeah. -Yury _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fios at foramnagaidhlig.net Mon May 18 09:10:31 2015 From: fios at foramnagaidhlig.net (=?UTF-8?B?RsOycmFtIG5hIEfDoGlkaGxpZw==?=) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 15:10:31 +0100 Subject: Numbers / Compact Decimal Formatting Message-ID: <5559F2D7.9000502@foramnagaidhlig.net> Hi all, I am wondering what happens to the fields in Numbers / Compact Decimal Formatting for number systems that my language doesn't normally use. These fields were pre-filled with inherited values last week, but now they are blank in the Survey Tool. If the inherited values are used, I'd rather fix them up, because the plural forms result in grammar errors if I don't. If they will remain blank in actual usage, I can do something else with my time :) From emmo at us.ibm.com Mon May 18 10:00:24 2015 From: emmo at us.ibm.com (John Emmons) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:00:24 -0500 Subject: Numbers / Compact Decimal Formatting In-Reply-To: <5559F2D7.9000502@foramnagaidhlig.net> References: <5559F2D7.9000502@foramnagaidhlig.net> Message-ID: Actually I was surprised to see that these are showing up in survey tool at all. And while technically you could fill them in, I would contend that they are not going to be useful in common practice, and should probably removed from the ST entirely. I have filed http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/8527 to that effect. So as you say : I can do something else with my time :) I would recommend you do something else with your time.... :) Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: F?ram na G?idhlig To: "cldr-users at unicode.org" Date: 05/18/2015 09:19 AM Subject: Numbers / Compact Decimal Formatting Sent by: "CLDR-Users" Hi all, I am wondering what happens to the fields in Numbers / Compact Decimal Formatting for number systems that my language doesn't normally use. These fields were pre-filled with inherited values last week, but now they are blank in the Survey Tool. If the inherited values are used, I'd rather fix them up, because the plural forms result in grammar errors if I don't. If they will remain blank in actual usage, I can do something else with my time :) _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at macchiato.com Mon May 18 12:24:37 2015 From: mark at macchiato.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDimJXvuI8=?=) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:24:37 -0700 Subject: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> Message-ID: The bar is not high for *adding* language data. The bar is a bit high for getting the *status* value increased. That's where I think we could use some suggestions for improvement. Mark *? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?* On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Shawn Steele wrote: > The weakness in the process is emerging/unsupported languages/markets. > If one of the big companies isn?t behind a language, it?s kinda hard for > users to get support for that language. Granted there?re lots of reasons > for that, but right now the bar is pretty high. > > > > -Shawn > > > > *From:* CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] *On Behalf Of *John > Emmons > *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 6:00 AM > *To:* Mark Davis [image: ?]? > *Cc:* cldr-users at unicode.org; Yury Tarasievich > *Subject:* Re: 4 Votes > > > > Thanks Mark for (hopefully) putting this topic to rest. I take great > pride in working with the people who contribute tirelessly to this project, > and there are many of them. > > The processes we've put in place over the last decade, while not perfect, > are there to give us the highest quality data we can. > > Open source does not mean uncontrolled source. > > > Regards, > > John C. Emmons > Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman > IBM Software Group > Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com > > > > > From: Mark Davis [image: ?]? > To: Yury Tarasievich > Cc: "cldr-users at unicode.org" > Date: 05/17/2015 06:28 PM > Subject: Re: 4 Votes > Sent by: "CLDR-Users" > ------------------------------ > > > > > Let me set out some of our constraints first?so that people can understand > what we can and can't do?but we'd be glad to take suggestions that would > improve the voting process described on > http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure . > > Our goal is to be able to let people submit data as easily as possible > (given that we have limited engineering resources). There are two big > issues: > > - How reliable is the data? > - We have a mechanism in place to signal to consumers of the data > an indicator of that status, called the 'draft' status. > - We certainly don't want data that is malicious (like > http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/11/google-shuts-down-map-maker-following-hacks/) > or simply misinformed data (which is why we test the consistency of the > data wherever we can). > - What is the dispute mechanism? > - If two or more people disagree, how do we resolve the dispute? > (ideally, to get the most reliable data). > - We also need to have stability?we don't want "battling data", > where a field is X for one release, Y for the next, and then back to X. > > We have refined the mechanisms that we use over time. While anyone can > enter data, it is marked provisional or unconfirmed unless we have some > reason to believe that it is more authoritative. We're not in a position to > judge the qualifications of submitters, so for that, we encourage people to > get some body (governmental, academic) that can stand behind their work. > Now, even if authority doesn't exist, the submitted data is still there, > and can be used. > > Resolving the disputes is even trickier, and we continue to refine the > mechanisms. For example, if there is a tied dispute within those > representing a given organization, in the past we nullified the > organization's vote. We're changing that to use the most recent vote in the > current release. > > If you have concrete suggestions for improving how we do things, we'd love > hearing about them. If you file a ticket, then we can be sure that those > are tracked (and don't fall through the cracks). > > > Mark > > *? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?* > > On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Yury Tarasievich < > yury.tarasievich at gmail.com> wrote: > On 05/17/2015 10:27 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be > absolutely right (which I am in no expert > position to challenge), but in that case you > should be able to convince other language > experts and users to support your position and > stop insisting that you should be able to > override earlier approved values just because > you say so. The purpose of the vetting process > is to produce generally acceptable values, and > the tickets complement it effectively. > > The form might be better, but I can identify with the guy, nevertheless. > This is the kind of a problem sort of built-in in the cldr process. Several > years ago I just stopped investing the time in the native locale in cldr, > because of the same issues -- fields being pre-filled on some > nebulous/undisclosed basis, and then it's sort of irrevokable decision. > Vetting, yeah, yeah. > > -Yury > > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > _______________________________________________ > CLDR-Users mailing list > CLDR-Users at unicode.org > http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: emoji_u2615.png Type: image/png Size: 1616 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eik at iki.fi Sun May 24 03:29:53 2015 From: eik at iki.fi (Erkki I Kolehmainen) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 11:29:53 +0300 Subject: VS: VS: 4 Votes In-Reply-To: <5559DA78.4080704@gmail.com> References: <5550B017.9010206@gmail.com> <5550E441.7020906@gmail.com> <55577E86.90504@gmail.com> <555782AA.2040102@gmail.com> <55578C41.4040906@gmail.com> <184B6227-1B8E-46A1-B104-F97E9B2F6339@icu-project.org> <55587D4A.80509@gmail.com> <001f01d090a7$0e87bfa0$2b973ee0$@fi> <5558E1BA.90301@gmail.com> <004301d090d7$7669d4c0$633d7e40$@fi> <5558ED0A.7060007@gmail.com> <000001d0912c$7703a320$650ae960$@fi> <5559DA78.4080704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000501d095fb$cf3d10c0$6db73240$@fi> Unfortunately, I cannot possibly comment on this detail, i.e. data for a language that I?m not familiar with. Opposite opinions exist frequently, but the values with support by the majority should win. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 18. toukokuuta 2015 15:27 Vastaanottaja: Erkki I Kolehmainen; cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: VS: 4 Votes Erkki, what's your thoughts about following comment by Shervin. On 5/17/2015 11:41 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: This is not a defect; using "??????" rather than "??????" (as well as "??????") is intentional. Refer to "??? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???? ?????". On 5/18/2015 10:05 AM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Effective mechanisms exist to take down wrong translations. A person can always change his or her own mind, but if a submitted value has been approved, the originator has no right to nullify the votes of others who have supported it. Erkki I. Kolehmainen L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 22:34 Vastaanottaja: cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Why a Persian thinks that his Luri translation is good and no one can take it down? Why a Mazandarani can't take his own translation down? On 5/17/2015 11:57 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Sorry, but it seems to me that you believe to be absolutely right (which I am in no expert position to challenge), but in that case you should be able to convince other language experts and users to support your position and stop insisting that you should be able to override earlier approved values just because you say so. The purpose of the vetting process is to produce generally acceptable values, and the tickets complement it effectively. Erkki I. Kolehmainen L?hett?j?: Mjbmr [mailto:mjbmri at gmail.com] L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 21:45 Vastaanottaja: Erkki I Kolehmainen; cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Actually I was telling the reasons stops me from contributing. So please don't call it open source when I as a "guest" can't override an approved wrong item. On 5/17/2015 6:10 PM, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: Dear Mjbmr, Submitting a ticket is the agreed-upon method to make (and ? in fact - authorize) TC to act on specific issues, not a discussion on the cldr-users mailing list. Other than that, it is justifiably somewhat more difficult to overturn an _approved_ value than to introduce a new one. Discussion on the ticket also invites more effectively the interested parties to express and justify their positions. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen Tilkankatu 12 A 3, 00300 Helsinki, Finland Mob: +358400825943, Tel / Fax (by arr.): +358943682643 L?hett?j?: CLDR-Users [mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] Puolesta Mjbmr L?hetetty: 17. toukokuuta 2015 14:37 Vastaanottaja: cldr-users at unicode.org Aihe: Re: 4 Votes Shervin, I wasn't "mobilizing" people to vote, I asked to contribute. For example we found a horrible translation for PS territory code in Mazandarani language which I asked the original person to fix that, but I also voted for new translation, it's not going to be the winning item, ST has chose older translation over the new one even both have two votes. Please fix that. The translation for Northern Luri language in Northern Luri language you have put is "??? ?????" which is wrong and should be "???? ???????" which it couldn't be possible to take the approved one down with some votes. I also couldn't fix translation for such as "US English" in Persian, it's not going to loose approved translation. Most of translations for "America" is "Emrica" and "Africa" is "Efrica" in Persian. I remember back in a few years ago, I applied translations for these in Persian, but they are gone. Please don't ask me to submit a ticket for these problems, I already said what's required. On 5/17/2015 2:36 AM, John Emmons wrote: Generally speaking, they go from "guest" to "regular" by becoming members of the Unicode consortium. The TC always has the option ( but not the obligation ) to confer "regular" status on an individual for a particular language. We deal with these on a case by case basis. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Shawn Steele To: John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS, "Steven R. Loomis" Cc: Shervin Afshar , "cldr-users at unicode.org" , Mjbmr Date: 05/16/2015 04:48 PM Subject: RE: 4 Votes _____ How would unaffiliated folks go from ?guest? to ?regular?? It seems like if certain folks are interested in language(s) that the organizations working in CLDR don?t have a business interest in, it might be good to have a way to get at least some of the parties that are interested in those languages to be ?regular?. -Shawn From: CLDR-Users [ mailto:cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org] On Behalf Of John Emmons Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 2:38 PM To: Steven R. Loomis Cc: Shervin Afshar; cldr-users at unicode.org; Mjbmr Subject: Re: 4 Votes I will definitely underline what Steven just said. Even a single vote ( 1 point ) will give an item draft="unconfirmed" status, which will make it part of the CLDR. The draft status is simply intended to be a rough measure of how much faith we put in the quality of any given data item. I certainly hope that you don't feel your efforts in contributing to the CLDR will be wasted. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: "Steven R. Loomis" < srl at icu-project.org> To: Mjbmr < mjbmri at gmail.com> Cc: Shervin Afshar < shervinafshar at gmail.com>, " cldr-users at unicode.org" < cldr-users at unicode.org>, John Emmons/Austin/IBM at IBMUS Date: 05/16/2015 01:41 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" < cldr-users-bounces at unicode.org> _____ In other words, provisional status does not mean that your votes are removed from CLDR! They become a part of the release on our freely available for implementations to use Enviado desde nuestro iPhone. El may 16, 2015, a las 11:28 AM, Mjbmr escribi?: I only try to help these people and these languages, that's all. I'll give up if there is something blocking me. On 5/16/2015 10:28 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. It's true about any language and guest voters voting on them. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? Sorry to hear that you wasted your time mobilizing people to vote. I pointed you to the CLDR process document in the beginning of this thread. All the procedures and regulations regarding voting and contribution is documented there. I invite you to study that document carefully if you decide to keep contributing to the CLDR (which I hope you do). I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. Unicode and CLDR are not working with wiki model, but since you're involved with Wikimedia Foundation projects as well, you can bring their attention to the issue of your interest in these languages. On occasions, WMF has organizational votes on some locales: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mjbmr wrote: Actually I wasn't talking about any specific language. So if that's true, why didn't you tell me at the first time so I wouldn't waster my time on contacting people? I'm sure we don't have high value vote people in Unicode organizations from all languages. Better be another choice, like a wiki would be better. On 5/16/2015 10:08 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: TC = Technical Committee. Unicode Consortium member organizations are listed at: http://www.unicode.org/consortium/members.html So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? All four of Northern Luri contributors are in the same organization ("guest") and therefore: For each value, each organization gets a vote based on the maximum (not cumulative) strength of the votes of its users who voted on that item. That is, even if an organization has 10 Vetters voting for an value, if the highest level is regular vetter, then the vote count attributed to the organization as a whole is 4. http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#TOC-Voting-Process ? Shervin On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mjbmr wrote: So why 4 guest vote won't get the item approved? What's the "TC"? Who are the members of unicode organization? On 5/12/2015 9:15 PM, John Emmons wrote: Depending on the level of account you have, most things will fall into one of the following buckets: Guest accounts receive 1 vote. Any data item with only 1 vote will stlil go into CLDR as draft="unconfirmed". Regular vetter accounts from Unicode member organizations receive 4 votes. Most locales in CLDR only require 4 votes for the item to be draft="approved" ( which is the meaning when no draft status is specifically mentioned in the data ). The only exceptions to this are the "high visibility" locales, ( examples would include things like German, French, Arabic, or Chinese ). For these locales, 8 votes are required in order to make a change ( 2 set of eyes from 2 different organizations ). TC member accounts receive 20 votes, and are used only to resolve disputes when necessary, and also to vote on high visibility items that require a TC review. Regards, John C. Emmons Globalization Architect & Unicode CLDR TC Chairman IBM Software Group Internet: emmo at us.ibm.com From: Mjbmr To: Shervin Afshar Cc: cldr-users at unicode.org Date: 05/11/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: 4 Votes Sent by: "CLDR-Users" _____ I asked "will" they be removed? and by that I mean will they get into svn repos or not? On 5/11/2015 9:43 PM, Shervin Afshar wrote: They are not removed. If I'm not mistaken in interpreting the resolution rules[1], they end up being marked as "provisional". [1]: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/process#resolution_procedure ? Shervin On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Mjbmr wrote: If we don't reach 4 votes till the end of ST close time, will they be removed? _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users_______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users _______________________________________________ CLDR-Users mailing list CLDR-Users at unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/cldr-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: